Radical Justice with Nani Jansen Reventlow

What does radical justice actually require of us?

Not just systems change. Not just representation.
But a willingness to interrogate everything — including ourselves.

In this episode of Overnight Wisdom, Chisom sits down with Nani Jansen Reventlow — human rights lawyer, founder of Systemic Justice, and author of Radical Justice — to unpack the realities of building change from within and what it means to pursue justice at the root.

From being the only person of colour shaping digital rights in Europe…
to building Systemic Justice as a “movements law firm”…
to confronting the limits of working within systems designed to exclude.

We talk about the uncomfortable truths:

– Why diversity without structural change is harm
– How injustice doesn’t stay “out there” — it shows up in our own work
– The hidden cost of leadership, especially as a Black woman
– And the clarity it takes to know when to build, stay, or walk away

This is not a conversation about performative change.
It’s about doing the deeper, harder work — even when it costs you.

If you’ve ever felt the tension between who you are and the systems you operate in… this one will stay with you.  

Transcript

0:05

What does it mean to fight unjust systems while working inside them? In this episode of Overnight Wisdom, I sit with Nani Jansen-Reventlow, human rights lawyer, founder of systemic justice and author of Radical Justice, to unpack the realities of building change from within. We talk about strategic litigation as a tool for systemic change, what it actually means to decolonize a field beyond surface level diversity and the tension of being both an insider and an outsider in systems designed to exclude. Nani shares the moment she realized she was the only person of color shaping digital rights in Europe and how that sparked the movements to fundamentally rethink who gets to be in the room and why. We also explore the cost of doing justice work personally and professionally. Why founders must know when to step away. and how to stay rooted in your values in systems that constantly test them. This is a conversation about power, identity and clarity. and what it takes to build work that is both impactful and honest. If you've ever questioned whether to stay, to leave, or to rebuild the system entirely, this one is for you. Let's get into it. welcome Nani really good to have you here how are doing I'm fine, thanks so much for having me. Yeah, thanks for being here. I'm looking forward to this conversation and I reckon I'll learn new things about you as well since I know you from before. I'm gonna jump right in and I normally like to start by just asking my guests to tell me about themselves, how they came to be, whatever is present for you really. How I came to be, I love that framing. So I'm Dutch, I grew up in Amsterdam. I am the daughter of a white Dutch mother and a Black Somalian father. I was raised for the majority of my childhood by my mum uh alone. My parents got divorced when I was six. My sister was three at the time, so we grew up in a household that was like three women. in Amsterdam. So I think that one of the things that may be important or useful to know, like for my context, is that I grew up with a mother who very much understood that there was some racism in the world, but had a very uh old-fashioned and I think for the Netherlands quite uh normal at the time, viewed that racism was something that bad people did to other people, not something that was systemic. And uh her understanding of that never really developed a lot further uh in life. Her idea was basically if there would be enough kids like me in the world, racism would be solved, which is a very lovely idealistic vision, but not very It doesn't really correspond to reality, right? So that is something that I grew up with and very much in a white neighborhood, went to a very white school and so on. So my awareness of issues was also very limited to my understanding of them until a little bit later in life. I ended up training with a law firm after going to law school and Again, very much a white organization. I remember that we had about 300 lawyers or so working there at the time and five of us were different. And from there I moved on to working in civil society to um work on human rights, which is what I actually wanted to do. in life, started out with defending journalists and bloggers around the world with an NGO in London that these days is called Media Defense, really discovered strategic litigation there and that has been the recurring thread in my work ever since. So I since then like moved on via projects at Harvard to setting up the Digital Freedom Fund, my first organization, and then moving to Systemic Justice, which is the organization that I currently run and I'm on my way out of as we have this conversation. And I think that alongside that professional development, which brought my work closer and closer to working on issues of racial, social and economic justice, there also was a big personal journey for me in really understanding what my positionality in this world meant as a Black woman and at some point also as a woman leading an organization. as a lawyer before that. And yeah, all of those things kind of like started coming together more and more in my life. I am now uh based in Denmark. I live an hour outside of Copenhagen. I married a Dane. This is how I ended up here. People always ask me like, why, what are you doing in Denmark? And the organization I run at the moment works remotely. So that offers lovely possibilities of, yeah. living a little bit in the countryside and still doing your work. Hmm. Thanks for sharing. So a lot of things in there that I know we'll get into. But to your point about people asking why Denmark? And I feel like people ask this just for the Nordics in general. It's like it's either love or work because nothing else makes sense. Right. So yeah, that's I also when I meet people, I'm just like, are you a love migrant or are you a work migrant? You know, it's very rare, you know. But yeah, okay. So you were talking about kind of just your journey and how you got into civil society with the work that you did. And I write somewhere actually, I did not know this from you, I did some research that in 2018 was, I think during a strategy meeting, you sat down and realized that you were the only person of color in the room of your own organization. Um, so I guess my question is, you know, first, what was that realization like? Because I think it was also the catalyst for you essentially decolonizing actively a lot of work and fields in which you engage. What was that like and what happened, afterwards? Yeah, this was the group photo from the first strategy meeting that we organized with the Digital Freedom Fund. So the Digital Freedom Fund works to support strategic litigation on digital rights, so human rights in a digital context across Europe. And we started that work with an elaborate strategy process in which we spoke to everyone in the field working on these issues to get a sense of where we could be most useful and to set the strategic direction for the organization. And part of that was this strategy meeting, which essentially brought together key organizations in Europe working on digital rights. it was only after that meeting when I saw the group photos, like, huh, I'm the only person on this photo who isn't white. Like, that's not really what our society looks like at the moment. And this is definitely not who is most affected uh by the use of technology in our society nowadays, because that's mostly marginalized groups. So that was just one of those aha moments. I'd had many of those before in my life, right? Being the only person walking into the room who wasn't white. But it just kind of stood out to me, particularly because of the issue that we were working on. And then I started paying more more attention of what the rooms looked like that I would walk into when we were discussing digital rights in the region. And those rooms would usually be made up by white, cis-head men, uh people who were not disabled, etc. So again, not a reflection of our society at large. And I kind of observed that for about a year or so, because our organization was in part a convener and in part a re-granter, so we were sort of like half part of the funding ecosystem. So we fundraised in order to be able to kind of give financial support to strategic cases. I was also part of lot of those funder conversations and there was always this conversation about DEI and like how things would change and like why aren't there more people um in the room with different backgrounds. And at some point I was just like everybody just keeps on talking in circles. They keep on talking, nobody's doing anything. you know, I just got little bit annoyed and figured we should do something. Let's just start. And that is what actually was the beginning of a decolonising process for the digital rights field in Europe, which is still ongoing and these days is being continued by the Weaving Liberation Project. And yeah, we started by talking to all those organisations working on racial, social and economic justice that we weren't seeing uh as part of the conversations about digital rights to figure out like what are the obstacles, why are people in the room? When they do make it into the room, what are their experiences? And vice versa, talking to digital rights organizations, like how are you engaging with these issues in your work? And that was the beginning of that process. Thanks for sharing. I'm curious, oftentimes when we see something that needs to change within systems or structures, build the ones we inhabit and the ones we don't, there's a lot of conversation that happens, but the starting seems almost sometimes impossible. Like people are just gonna talk about it and talk about it for years and nothing changes. What does it actually take to make that first step? So if I think back of that process and also setting up systemic justice, which very much came from a similar realization that the landscape wasn't, that something was missing, let me put it that way. For systemic justice, it was the realization that the way that lawyers and litigating organizations were working wasn't serving communities and wasn't... wasn't enabling them to really properly hold power in the strategic cases that concern them. That also was something where it was a realization, it was a number of conversations at the time with our legal advisors, Digital Freedom Fund, who later on ended up being System of Justice First Head of Legal, Jonathan McCully. And yeah, there was something in there about the... we should be able to do this differently. Like, why don't we try to figure out how to do that? So I will never say that like I single-handedly figured out what needed to happen. The way that I generally work is like by talking to lots of people and actually by talking to the people um who the issue concerns. with systemic justice, started talking to a lot of organizations around here, working on racial, social and economic justice, understanding. the way in which they were engaged with the law and the litigation at the moment, and basically asking if this idea that had formed made sense. And also asking a lot of questions that basically invited people to say no, because it's very easy to go and like, I have this great idea, do you love it? And getting positive feedback. But actually really seeking out that critical perspective. I have to be really honest also at the time I wasn't super keen on building another organization because I actually had found the first experience quite harrowing. But I figured for me it was really clear I need to first test whether or not this idea that has grown in my head actually makes sense in reality and I need to talk to people about it. And that's kind of like how I've always in a collaborative way designed I love that. I've been, I've seen a little bit of how you work at systemic justice. And I think there's very much uh centering of the communities that you serve in designing and leading and I guess directing you know how things are done and kind of what the outcome not that it's only outcome focus but what the outcome is at the end of the day. Now I think before we go into systemic justice I wonder if you could share a little bit about what strategic litigation is for those who are listening who might not know. Yes, so strategic litigation means using the courts in order to bring about change that affects not only the people or the groups that are involved in the case but has a bigger systemic impact. So it brings about change in law, in policy or in practice. And importantly, it doesn't just use the courts in isolation. So it's about using the courts as one of the many tactics that you use within a strategy. So it goes in tandem with advocacy work, goes in tandem with campaigning, trying to raise public awareness, doing policy work, et cetera, in order to kind of bring about that bigger change. That also means that your case can be really strategic, even though you might not get the win inside the courtroom that you might have wanted, because that impact is brought about through a different channel. the legal process is part of a broader strategy for a bigger change. Love that. And then systemic justice, which is described as the movements law firm. What is the movements? Well, it's movements uh plural. So it's a shorter way of saying that we work together with uh organizations, movements and collectives that are all fighting for racial justice, for social justice, economic justice, climate justice in this world, and that we're there to make sure that the legal part of their strategy can actually happen. Yeah, so I guess the term law firm makes it a little bit easier to relate because If you just say you provide people support, people could think, oh, you'll just leave people out. or you'll find pro bono help for them or something or other. But it's really about being this long-term strategic partner on the legal front in bigger campaigns for change. That's the role that we work to fulfill. for change. as a founder, as a person who started this, how do you, yeah, because I know now you're on your way out, but also how do you hold founding something and decentralizing your own authority within what you founded? This is a great question. think that this organization in and of itself is like decentering is actually a really good word to use for that because we're really decentering lawyers in the legal process. What you see in traditional relationships between lawyers and clients, whatever they are, whether they're movements or individuals, it's quite often that the legal strategy kind of like starts taking the lead in the process. It's not so much the client slash the organization or the collective that is in the driver's seat. So what we're doing a lot is actually seeing ourselves as facilitators of a process rather than the ones who know exactly how things should be going, what kind of cases should be brought, what we should be asking for, et cetera, but rather make it possible for the community partner to really make all of those decisions themselves. And I see my role in that uh very similarly, right? I, and this is also the reason why I think for me it's time to go now because I played that role. I am someone who starts things, who can do the strategic design, who does it in a consultative way. I like to think anyway. And... who gets things going, who can get enthusiasm for it, can kind of like help find resourcing, figure out how things should be put together uh essentially. And yeah, then it's basically up to the team that you're building, the partners that you have, et cetera, to kind of like take that forward. I think that with my first organization, with the Digital Freedom Fund, that idea came from a strategy meeting that had taken place before I entered the scene. So I very much considered myself a custodian of that work, right? I was given an idea in very rough form, then tried to figure out exactly what that should look like in practice, how it should work, build it. But I also was like, okay, I need to build something that's not dependent on me being there for it to actually perform its function in the world. So I set myself a timeline of five years. I was like, okay, by then I should have a thing that I can hand over to someone else. And I stuck to that. With systemic justice, I didn't have such a clear timeline in mind when I got started. But I actually kind of just learned a lot about myself and about where my strongest contribution in processes like this lies and where my happy place also as a person is. And that is in that creative and that building phase and so on. And I just had to, at some point, just look in the mirror and say, OK, I am not a manager. that just makes me very sad to do. So the work deserves it, the team deserves it to get someone in whose happy place that is. And you can really kind of like nurture things and shepherd them onto the next phase. And that's just not me because for me, it just takes so much energy to do those sorts of things. like the building and the strategy development and so on, you know, that energizes me. So yeah, it's kind of like a... It's been a bit of a discovery journey also for me. I love that though. think one of the challenges I think for perhaps founders or leaders is to know when to step away. Right. And oftentimes when you build something, it's your baby, right? From that infancy to whatever it becomes. and it's knowing when do I step away and navigating that space of what does stepping away say about me? You know, how does it look? how do you, how do you manage that in terms of Yeah, because how do you even think about how does this look? What do people say? What does it say about me? I think there's a lot in there, right? There's something about timing, like when is the right time also, like, because you can't step away too soon when it's not fully fledged enough. And, you know, it needs to have taken a certain degree of shape, right, in order for it to be able to kind of like continue along the path that you've used, course that you've set for the work. But also indeed not sticking around too long. I think I think that we also shouldn't discount for the fact that there are quite often very limited alternatives for founders. And here I think just about the fact that the landscape in which we operate is really tricky. There's no kind of like, you start a business, right, and you sell your shares you can live off your investment and retire. Which is not the same thing if you set something up that's for the public good. There's no retirement fund for non-profit founders. So a lot of people also kind of like stay because this is something that they've invested in. It's not very easy to then just kind of like go into another organization and become a regular employee again, even if it's at a management level. So those are all things that are very difficult to navigate. like, what are the alternatives that you have? I may be a little bit silly in that sense that I just, I've always just had this very single-minded kind of like focus on making sure that I would do what's best for the work first. And what's best for the work is that, Now that we need to kind of like move to a different style of leadership, that the organization needs different leadership, more management, more further development and so on, that just requires a different kind of person than I am. So that has been kind of like the guiding principle for me. Of course, I also kind of like look at like, will I, do I think that I can somehow figure out how to land on my feet if something new doesn't come along? So there's something in there about also thinking like, I love thinking through worst case scenarios, right? Like, so worst case scenario, I have to kind of like take a job that I don't really love because I still need to pay the mortgage. Yeah, there are worse things in life, right? So I took all of that into account in making that decision. But I think that the strongest impetus was just basically just that my heart just said like, no, it's time to go. like you need to kind of like hand this over well, but like it's time to let it go. I think it says a lot about you as well, right? Because I think it's one thing to, one, of course you have that singular focus. I want to do what's best for this organization, for this work. But I think as well to be able to differentiate the ego and the self and the need and all the reality of the real world, like, shoot, maybe I have to go find a job if something does not come along. So de- centering that is also quite interesting. But I think the clarity in you know, where your skills lie, where your energy or at least what energizes you versus what doesn't. I think having that clarity and then using it as a north star, so to say, in guiding how you make decisions, I think that's great. know, I think I made a lot of founders and leaders and even myself included when I've stepped away from things like usually the first time I did it, took a long time to like, okay, when is the time? And I think having an ankle and having that clarity as to why you should do it, I think that's brilliant. I'm thinking within the way that you work, right? Justice is quite centered in a lot of what you do. even if we look at your career as a lawyer, the work you've done with systemic justice and strategic litigation as well, of course, you were trained as a lawyer in the Netherlands and then in the US. I guess my question is, you operate within the system, and then you are also fighting to abolish the system, in a sense. So. How do you hold both being an insider and being an outsider? This is a great question. so I'll share that this is one of the things that I struggled with quite a bit, especially when I think it was the first time that I actually read Audre Lorde's Master's Tools Will Never Dismantles or The Master's House. That kind of like threw me into a whole tailspin of like, what? Like, how can I be a human rights lawyer? And like the system is... built by people who hold power and privilege and like how am I upholding the system by participating in it? But I ended up with the view that there's basically roughly speaking, two different tracks of work that need to take place at the same time. One is imagining and building the alternative to the systems that we currently have. the world making project, if you like. And while we do that, which is work that is not going to happen overnight, we do need to make sure that the systems that we have right now work better. Because otherwise we'd be throwing everything on the world making project and like let continue letting harm occur in the meantime without uh pushing back. And I think that there's still a huge margin. of improvement within our legal system, for example, where as uh a litigator, you actually have quite a lot of space that you can use to actually work for better outcomes. So part of that is, for example, what we're trying to do in making sure that people most affected by injustice are actually able to use the legal system to their advantage in their campaigns for change. But it's also about what happens within those procedures, right? Like what can you get courts, what can you get individual judges to consider as they look at cases, as they consider them. So there's quite a lot that you can do as a lawyer, So from time to time I train lawyers and one of the things that I like to emphasize in those processes is always that as lawyers you also have a role in educating the court. can, by the type of arguments that you make, by the kind of evidence that you bring in, you can kind of like help move a court towards a different perspective and that can open things up a lot. so I think that we can do a lot within the system. and that it's really, really important to not mistake that for the change that we actually need to make. So it's an interim solution, right? It's an interim measure to make sure that we maximize outcomes for marginalized communities, minimize harm while we're doing the world making part of the work. So there's something there about like being playing a really useful role in the interim, but not mistaking that for actually changing the system, which actually just needs to be scrapped completely and replaced. Do you think it is possible to have one foot in each world while making change until... Okay, let me reframe this. So I hear you in terms of the systems we have now ideally should be replaced. Do I see that happening in our lifetime? I don't think so. So I think it's wonderful to dream, but I can't see it. I want to be surprised, but I just can't. So my question then is, I think that oftentimes a lot of people who do good work on either side are usually on. either side, right? Like there's no foot in between or like there's no middle ground, like an intermediary and kind of like in the work you talk about where there's an interim role. Do you think that that can be done successfully given that we are not sure of this other world that we're trying to imagine in our lifetime? So I think that the imagination and that the vision for this alternative is crucial for whichever role we take on. It shows us what could be possible. It gives us a compass to work towards. And it gives us, I think, a better sense of what might be the groundwork that we're laying right now for work that will be taken forward by people who come after us, right? And for... For those of us who working within the system, it also gives us a good... Well, the word reality check doesn't work there. Is it like a dream check? it an ideation check? To remain bold and ambitious in the changes that we want to make and not lose sight of the fact that maybe achieving those changes with tiny, tiny steps means that those tiny steps in and of themselves are the goal. I was just reflecting on I guess maybe that's also why we viewed knowing that what we are building for, we may not see in our lifetimes, but maybe the next generation and the next generation after that might have something better. I think for me also reflecting on a lot of the abolitionists or the people who fought against slavery. I reckon at some point in the middle of colonialism, somebody was sitting in Nigeria somewhere thinking this will never end. These people will never leave. But of course it happened. So I guess there's also that thing about almost maybe hope that this leads to something. But of course, like matching that hope with action, because that is when change and more clarity shows up actually. that makes a lot of sense. I think back often to, once had a, was part of a really lovely symposium for human rights leaders from around the world, uh Symposium for Strength and Solidarity for Human Rights. And at one of the first gatherings, we planted trees. And one of the sayings that was shared then was like that few farmers sit in the shade of the trees they plant, right? And I, I think of that a lot when some of my favorite trees in this area are so huge, right? And they will have started out as these tiny things, like such a long time ago. And there's something there about being okay that something you do now might not directly benefit you or people you care about here and here and now in your realm. And doing that for future generations and just Yeah, getting the satisfaction out of the act in and of itself. Absolutely. think as well, sometimes it might be difficult to reflect on why am I working on something that does not necessarily immediately benefit me. And I think having an anchor as to the why and to the vision and who you're beautiful makes it. you know, easier. I often think about even for myself, I find sometimes conversations around systemic issues exhausting, you know, say conversations around racism, for example, it exhausts me mentally, emotionally. But then I think I need to have this conversation now so my daughter doesn't have to. And then that calls me into this is difficult, but I can do this hard thing so she doesn't have to do the hard thing. So that's also what that took me back to. And others have done work before us, right? So there's also that, I think sometimes about just realizing that some of the rights and freedoms that we're enjoying and haven't, to be quite fair, been really good at kind of like remaining sharp on, right? Because people have just relaxed a little bit too much about kind of considering things as a given. And that is something that you constantly need to actually maintain and keep on defending. But those are people we don't know who did that fighting before us. So yeah. yeah, yeah. I love the quote. The first time I'm hearing it, few farmers sit in the shade of trees they plant. I love that. Yeah, it's really good. OK, I want to talk about decolonization because your work also sent us that. And I also want to talk about it within the construct of your book. But first, you know, I think decolonization is also becoming a buzzword, unfortunately. It's used often as a metaphor, rarely as a practice. And your work with digital rights in Europe, you initiated that in a sense. And you've also written a book now, Radical Justice, which I loved reading. I guess what I'm trying to ask you here is what does decolonization mean to you, structurally and personally? And what has it cost you in practice. That's a great question. So I should start with the caveat that I'm not a scientist or an academic. So I really speak to these terms in the sense of what sense they make to me uh and the sense that they've made to me in the course of my work. So the reason why we framed the process that we initiated at the Digital Freedom Fund at the time as a decolonizing process, because we really wanted to make clear that we weren't pursuing cosmetic changes. It wasn't pursuing a pipeline kind of like solution. The question was really like, okay, so we want this field to look differently, but bringing people into the field in the way that it's currently constructed is going to cause a lot of harm and create a lot of work, a lot of pain. You were just referring to that to those people who kind of like have to navigate those contexts if they come in. So we really need to kind of like start at the foundations. So this is why we refer to it as a decolonizing process. Got quite a lot of pushback on that in the beginning because people thought it all sounded way too radical and so on. But I'm glad that we stuck with that. I really like the liberation frame also that the current project has. That's also a nice way of looking at it. But really for... For me, was really about being really clear about the fact that we were looking at structural, changing structures, at changing the foundations and really the makeup of an ecosystem, uh essentially. What it has cost me personally. So it's been actually, it's been a really interesting journey in the sense that when I... initiated that work originally, it flew slightly under the radar. I think that, for example, my board at the time wasn't really paying attention to what I was doing. And so this was in 2019, actually, that I got started. And it wasn't until 2020 that this became much more mainstream and then their attention was also more focused on the work. But unfortunately, despite the fact that it became more popular, that didn't mean that they were also willing to kind of like put the resources and the support towards it that it deserved, right? So for example, when I try to recruit team members, like everyone within the organization after their trial period was put on permanent contracts, right? Like one of the things that I find really important if you're an employer, is to kind of make sure that you give people security, right, um in doing the work. There's a lot to contend with already with the type of work that we do. So that is something to provide as an organization. And I wanted to do the same for the people that we brought on for decolonizing work, but I wasn't allowed to do that because there was this view that this was a project. rather than a long-term process that was going to be taking just as long as the organization was going to exist probably. I managed to fix that before I left because I was very keen on not leaving people behind unprotected. But those were like really tough conversations where I came closest to actually fighting with my board ever. Yeah, because I was just really angry at the time that there was just this complete disconnect between kind of like thinking it was really cool that we were doing something that was relatively progressive at the time. then at the same time not wanting, not allowing me essentially to structure it and resource it in a way that it had to happen. On a personal level, that has been... part of the tension, The kind of like running up against that kind of resistance within the structure, the governance structure of my own organization, but also obviously in conversations with funders and so on at the time. And there was a very clear divide between who quote unquote got it and who didn't. And the conversations with the people who didn't could be quite exhausting. Yeah. Thanks for sharing. think just something I wanted to point to. mean, I think organizationally, it makes sense with regards to creating safety for your team. And I understand pushback when there's no money to do that. But when there's money to do that, then that pushback is, I guess can be quite exhausting. I wonder that for you, did you feel like it was important to take on that fight also because of the identities that you carry? For example, you're a Black woman. Was that something that Angkor did as well or was it just from a more structural, this is the right thing to do? So I really like that frame, right? Like if there's enough money. So when you're fundraising, right, for a nonprofit organization, you try to cover your budget always as far ahead of time as possible. But reality is quite often that most NGOs, if they're lucky, can cover their budget mostly for the year ahead of time and hopefully have a relatively manageable gap for the years that follow. So my... My big frustration was like, why are we happy to work that way for the expenses that we have for all the other work within the organization? But just, we just want to consider this as a project that could just be discarded after two years time. And I find it really important to make that commitment really clearly because the work wasn't going to end after two years time. which was the original kind of like frame for which we applied for dedicated funding for it. But yeah, everyone knew that that was not going be the end of it. yeah, the work does not end no matter what and that's the unfortunately that's the reality. Okay, I want to talk a little bit about your book Nani. Why did you write it? What is it about? Who is it for? So I ended up writing it because I had written an op-ed in a Dutch newspaper about reparations, and specifically about the reluctance to always talk about the monetary side of reparations. So the Netherlands is one of the tiny handful of countries that actually did issue an apology for their role in the global slave trade, and promised all sorts of things. research, commemoration, et cetera, but not reparations to descendants, right? And I find it And especially also making the link of all the ways in which we see the legacy of slavery, of colonialism show up in our day-to-day lives at the moment. That could be entry points for addressing some of that. And I was approached then by a new imprint with a publisher in Netherlands and the editor said, I read your op-ed, I was wondering if you might want to consider writing a book about it because the conversation always seems to be getting rather stuck. And I was like, well, I don't think that I should be the one to write a book about reparations because I'm not a reparations expert as such, but I would love to explore. that idea that there are so many ways in which that legacy is showing up in our world right now. There are so many different can start addressing as part of this bigger project. So that's what started the conversation. We ended up somewhere slightly different, which is where we are now. So Radical Justice is a collection of essays about racial, social and economic justice. It kind of like moves from kind of more cross-cutting issues such as the dynamic of hero worship in activism, how we always center male heroic leaders in work, which really kind of like disempowers all of us as change makers and also particularly invisibilizes the work that uh people who are not men do in change making. And it also looks at the need to really remain radical in our vision for change rather than always kind of like moving to that middle that keeps on moving further to the right and really kind of keeping that bold vision for change and working towards that. But then also has a number of really thematic specific issues, including reparations, also digital rights, climate justice, free speech. There's a chapter about using strategic litigation as a tool for change. how the legal system doesn't tend to work for marginalized communities, etc. It's book ended by an introduction that's a little bit more personal that says something about my positionality, like who am I to write this book, where does it come from, what is the personal uh and the political and professional kind of like context that I come from that has led to the views that I have in the book. And a last chapter that is about Black women in leadership. So those are a little bit more personal. And what the book tries to do is to really show what the root causes are of the injustices that we're seeing in the world right now. The title comes from Angela Davis's quote that radical simply means grasping things by the root because we need to really understand what the root causes are of the oppression that we're seeing right now. And in order to be able to change it, otherwise we'll only be working on cosmetic changes and not fundamentally change anything. So that is one thing is I want to show like, how does these systems work? How are they intertwined? But also make sure that people aren't feeling powerless, you know, in the face of all of that. So, at the end of each chapter, I give them what you think. section, which has a number of resources where people can continue learning about that particular topic. So things they can read, things they can listen to, a number of reflection questions if they want to do deeper thinking themselves or maybe in conversation with someone else. And then also concrete suggestions on taking action to really break it down within your sphere of influence. what can you actually start doing? Because I really want to drive home the point that each of us can make a difference. The world right now, it's so infuriating. It can make you feel so despondent and desperate and also feel that what you can do is too small that it doesn't matter, but it always does. And it's about each of us always being aware. of the opportunities that we actually have to make change and using the power industries of influence that we have to push things in the right direction. Thanks for sharing that. think there's also like a thread I see in your book as I read it is that call to action that we can do something. I know for people who work or who even care about what is happening societally and they want to see a sense of justice, it can feel quite overwhelming. And then, you know, uh we can get into a sense of action paralysis because it's like, what if I do does not matter? this problem is too big. And I think a trend, at least for me, is just that reminder that there's something we can do wherever we are and whatever context. And also I think for me, maybe it's something I've brought on, I guess because you also pull on one of the greats, activists and writers. you know, it's that constant reminder that we stand on the shoulders of these, you know, uh elders who've come before us and it's meaningful. So in moments where one might feel overwhelmed or even exasperated to recognize that we're not alone in the fight. And I think there's uh quite a really brilliant way that you've strung is that a word? Yes, strung it together. That constant reminder, the, yes you can, you can keep going. You can keep doing. So I really love that. um About your book, did writing it change you? Do you think? Yes, yes and no. So I think it brought me back to something I loved to do when I was young and I talk in the introduction about the orange typewriter I had when I was a kid, which my mum brought home one day because one of her colleagues didn't want it anymore. And I used to write for hours, like stories, novellas, like poems, like everything. And I loved it so much, like just kind of like go into that fancy world of just sit in my room and just like type, type, type, type, type away. writing this was a really great opportunity to first of all, kind of like really think through some of the things I've been working on for quite a number of years. And to do that with a little bit more space than, you know, an op-ed or a blog post or something like that usually offers you. It really helped me kind of like further structure my thoughts. So the process in and of itself, because once you start kind of like outlining something and you're just like, wait, what do I actually think about this? So that was just, that felt like a luxury, right? To be able to. to that, even though it was written in stolen hours on the weekend. But it brought me back, it reawakened, like, is that a word? I'm also in love. And this love for writing in me, and that I'm really, really thankful for. And it also kind of has given me something to really try and figure out how I can build more space into my life for that, to pursue that. I've also since like, anyway, there's lots of fiction ideas I want to pursue. There's also some nice non-fiction ones and so on. So I hope to be able to write much more over the coming years. I love that. I love that. I love to write. I feel, you know, I think if I couldn't write, if I didn't write, I probably would lose my mind, you know, because it helps me process. I often say the first version of anything I write, especially things that annoy me, I'm the only person that should see it because it is filled with expletives, you know, then I'm like, okay, I've gotten this out. What am I actually trying to say? You know, and it's a good way to process. I wanted to ask you in your writing process, because as you know, I'm working on my books as well. Did you write for anyone? I know how this came about with the op-ed and then being approached, but when you were writing, who were you writing for? So I try to not think like in a weird way, I try to not think too much about people reading it as I write. Cause I think that kind of like gives me too much of an impetus to self-censor as I do the drafting, right? Like that's something to think about later. But I did of course have to think about that because that very much determines like the pitch and the tone and accessibility. Some of that actually kind of like materialized in the exchanges with my, the white man who was my editor. And which made me kind of, stayed very explicitly in my introduction that I did not write this book for the white gaze, that I was not there to explain racism to anyone, that people should do their homework. And if there was anything they would run into in the book that they didn't understand, or didn't know more about, you know, some suggestions for books to get started, but like, this book, I think they'll know more, because that's not this book. But I think we want it to be accessible for a general audience, in the sense of a general audience of people who are annoyed with what they're seeing in the world right now, who are angry about it, who want to change things, but also activists who... use a little boost and would enjoy. seeing what other people are doing, because I mentioned a lot of examples of activism across the world and throughout the book, maybe to kind of like get a bit of recognition of like, others are engaged in similar struggles and they're trying interesting things that might be interesting for us to try as well. And yeah, I think. will also probably be a nice book for lawyers just because I also happen to be one. But I like to think that it's not just for lawyers but yeah interesting for anyone who wants to make this world better. yeah. And that translates. I wanna ask you about Black women and leadership. What have you learned and how do you continue to do it? Wow, do we have another couple of hours? Yeah. Oh, well, it's not a walk in the park, I think, is my euphemistic summary of my experience over the past years. I think... So two things, like, one is I'm really happy that I had no idea what I was getting myself into when I started building organizations. I'm not sure I would have, had I known. So there's something about having gone into that rather naively, actually, that probably also kind of gave me the speed to kind of like, yeah, persevere once I was in it. The other thing is that I just really, really, really underestimated what the level of resistance and sometimes outright vitriol is that you have to deal with whenever people think that you have even the tiniest bit of power, that you have the tiniest bit of a role that's higher in whatever imagined hierarchy is there. And one of the things that I found one of the bitterest lessons over the past couple of years has been the resistance and lack of solidarity from people where you would have expected to have been on the same side. There's something, recently, Ijeoma Oluo recently wrote it really nicely in a sub-stack entry, like no one can hurt you like your own. And I think that there's something there, especially because you expect there to be more safety and more protection in those contexts that kind of like makes the harm hurt even more. Yeah, we can talk about whatever you want. is some of our initial reflections thanks for sharing those. I think there's a sharpening that maybe comes with being a leader period, but also being a Black woman leader in any space. I see it and I'd love to hear how it's kind of evolved for you. I see that for myself, for example, oftentimes people approach me with great ideas. Like, you should talk to that person, I should talk to that person. And oftentimes, I almost sound to them like I am resisting. I'm like, thanks for this advice, but I know that would be a waste of my time specifically because I look like this and not just on the basis of looking like this. I know that even if there is an interest to help a Black woman, I am not helpable, right? Because I am not the kind, I don't want your help. I know what I bring to the table. And so it is not me. they want to center. So there's that. And then there's also the other perspective you raised around having a conversation with a friend recently where it's almost like a paradox because the people who actually support most are oftentimes the people you expect to not support you. So I have seen myself in situations as well where white folks were more supporting than Black folk or brown folk. So that paradox to hold can be a lot. Yeah. So the first thing about like white women, white women, sorry, white people introducing you to the other non-white person they know is exhausting. So I don't know how many useless introductions I've been given over the years. And this is not to kind of like disrespect anyone who is trying to be helpful and so on, but there seems to be like zero reflection as to whether or not introductions are actually helpful. It's basically like, my gosh. you're both different. Let me connect you. And I'm always just like, is this basically to kind of like show how many other people of color are Black people, you know? Or is this actually a well thought through uh introduction, right? And you then kind of like, you're forced to participate in this gratitude dance and like following up and you know, whatever. It's... Yeah, it's very annoying. So the other point about who supports you and who takes you down, I think there is just an under acknowledged and under appreciated dimension in there about the role that Black people, people of color, uh other marginalized groups kind of like play in upholding white supremacy. because it's the water that we all swim in, And we are pushed into also because we're living in a capitalist society, we're all pushed into this kind of like competition with each other for resources, for spotlight. There's a hustle culture kind of like that mixes into all of this. And... um get this, you get instilled with this idea that the only way to succeed is by being the best, by being unique, by being exceptional, et cetera. there can't be space for like two billion Black women in one meeting because just, you know, only one can be a special one. And that sets us up in competition to each other. That is being... fueled by the scarcity mindset that's there, like there's not enough to go around for everyone. And yeah, it's a huge barrier to us extending the proper solidarity that we should to each other in a lot of contexts. I think for me, like I made a very conscious decision to... So I've had a of like a baseline from very long ago I don't believe in this idea of competition. And I know that some people think that it sounds naive because like it's all the competition, like whatever. I'm like, no, like choices will be made. Sometimes you'll be chosen. Sometimes someone else will be chosen. There's obviously all sorts of dynamics at play in how choices are made, but that doesn't necessarily have to do with how we show up. And we don't need to actively undermine each other in order to increase our own chance of success. I don't have to like you in order to be supportive to you as a Black woman in a specific setting, et cetera. So even though I might not invite you over for tea. I might not grab a drink with you or like whatever, that doesn't mean that I'm going to invest any time and actively. Bringing you down. yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm with that as well. I think one of the, I think maybe it's just how I'm made, but I don't believe in competition. The only person I can compete with is the person who's staring back at me in the mirror. It's always just been my way of thinking, you know, and. Perhaps somebody once told me who sees me as a competition here in Norway said, well, Chisom, you can say that because you have this other thing that you do that has nothing to do with this space we work in. I'm an economist. I do data. I do research. I do all of that stuff. And I thought a lot of the challenges we're solving in justice or DEI or whatever are challenges I wish did not exist. So I am not going to compete with somebody else who's also trying to bridge a gap. So I think, of course, I think everything you've talked about around, we're all swimming in this world of white supremacy. I think some of us are aware of it to different degrees. And I think there's always something to unpack there. I think as well, I want to talk to you briefly about this as well in terms of being a Black woman in leadership. So yes, we've talked about, how sometimes that interaction between people we expect support from doesn't always come. But I'm also thinking about how you experience a system of whiteness or structure of whiteness within the spaces that you've worked and led. So what I mean here is not always, but sometimes there is almost a resentment of Black women. who lead by white people. Does that make sense what I'm saying? there's the, I don't think it's conscious. I think there's this idea that you are in some sense beneath me, but then if I see that you're smarter or if you show up in a certain way, then that is automatically a threat to me because being a Black woman leader is not normal. I think that the way that I tend to think about it is the perception of white people that if you know who you are, if you know what you stand for, if you know your worth, you don't know your place per definition. So you're uppity, right? Which is the beautiful US term for this. then you're an uppity Black woman and the first opportunity that presents itself, you you will be taken down a peg. So I've experienced this in like tons of forms, right? And also, I think quite often people don't even realize how ridiculous it is what they're telling you. So I had like at the very beginning of my previous organization, which was a new one, so I was representing it. I was trying to make it visible so people knew to come to us for support and things like that. And which is your job, right? If you run an organization you're supposed to represent, you sort of make sure that it's visible, that helps with your fundraising, like all of those things. And then I got the feedback that I was too visible. I'm like, for my board, right? I was like, okay, the organization that you want to succeed, who else is going to make sure that it gets talked about or that people know what's happening etc. And it's just like, I don't think that anyone even like sat down to figure out if that even computers at all. And yeah, there's been also like tons of situations also in the context of funding and so on where there's like always this narrative like, oh no, we're not hierarchical, la la la, you know, we want to have an open communication, open relationship and so on. But the moment there is any entry point to kind of like leverage that power that's naturally in that unequal power dynamic, yeah, people will. I think also there, a lot of people won't do that consciously. It's again about the water that we all swim in. And I think that there's just so much un-interrogated white privilege in all of these spaces that we have to operate in. That's just doing so much harm. That doesn't excuse it, but I do quite often, I'm just like, one of these incidents takes place, I'm just like, I don't even think that you realize what you're doing, how ridiculous this is. Yeah, yeah. Thanks for sharing. Okay, I want to ask you about as you move through the world and you know things change and evolve. What are some values or non negotiables that you hold on to, no matter what come rain come shine. I love this question. I actually found it hard to articulate that. So. feel that the strong sense of justice that I have is a very grounding value for me and that articulates in many different situations in different ways. It doesn't have to do with the legal system. there's something there about... Yeah, that also triggers self-reflection, right? Like am I... inflicting harm? Am I actually the person who is creating injustice in a certain situation? And if so, I need to kind of get myself back in check. But also in assessing what is happening to me and around me. So I think that that's a very, very central part. I think it is related to honesty, which I'm Dutch, right? The Dutch are a bit overboard with that also. So I'm not talking about like, your haircut looks awful. more just like honesty about like, what am I really feeling? What am I really thinking? What am I What is my gut essentially telling me in the - direction where to go? Yeah, I think I'll leave it with those two. need to think about this clearly. need to think about this a little bit better to articulate it well. yeah, those would be the two I'd go with. mean, justice and honesty, yeah, just strong ones, you know, because they're not easy. I think especially when it's always easy to, I think, look outwardly, right, and see what's wrong with systems and structures. think people really struggle with that mirror work. looking at yourself and your place in the world and how you exist in it. And I think that takes a lot of work and self-reflection is, can be exhausting as well. But, uh, no, but those are two really good ones. So now I'm going to go into the speed round. So first, what are you aspiring to in your personal life and in your professional life? in both more space. I want to get off the just running, running, running, running all the time thing. I want more space, more spaciousness. That's, yeah. that more space okay if you could speak to younger Nani what would you tell that younger version of yourself There's actually a lot outside the box, I guess. think... think the first time I invented my own working life, because I couldn't find the job that I wanted out there in the world, that was a really big step for me. And I think it would have probably given me a lot more peace of mind had I known that earlier on. I see. Yeah. Thanks for sharing. I love that. Okay. is there a moment in your life that shaped who you are today in a fundamental way? Absolutely, which is when I was putting on my white lab coat in dentistry school and decided that I could quit something I didn't like. That has been a watershed moment for me. And I think that, so I started to be a dentist for about a year and a half. And I just, one day I was putting on my coat and I just realized that I just didn't like it. And then the next thought was like, I could just quit. And that was just such an eye-opener for me. I'd always done everything that was expected of me until then, followed all the paths and everything. And I was just like, no, I can just quit. And I didn't know where it would take me. It ended up taking me to law school and all the things I did later. But it also kind of like freed me from that moment on of the idea that if I start something, I per definition have to finish it. Like you can actually quit if it's not for you. I love that. I think it would have been a loss to the world not having this version of Nani I'm just trying to imagine you there in somebody's teeth, somebody's mouth. I can't see it. But I think that lesson is something we can all take away from as well, right? I think I have a similar thing in that. I think for me, the first time I realized I could say no, and it was to my mother. you know, raising this very African structure. And one day I was just like, I can say no. And it was so liberating. Not for her, I'm sure she absolutely hated it. But for me, it was like, I don't have to do this thing because I don't want to do it. And it's freeing. was also in panic when I quit. Saying no is still like a muscle that I'm building. yeah, so that is a good one to learn early on. Thanks for sharing. Okay, so for anyone listening to this, what is one practical wisdom you can give to them, especially when you're working within justice systems to fix unjust systems? Oh, I think that one of the most valuable things that someone shared with me over the past couple of years has been to not expect that the injustice that you're resisting doesn't show up within your own context. Because that has been something that really clicked when I heard that. We've been trying really actively to kind of like build a very specific organizational culture. This is really hard work. again, the water that we all swim in is one of white supremacy. And a lot of us have internalized a lot of that. So that requires a lot of continuous work. And there's something there about just being really being realistic about that and being OK with the fact that you can't keep the injustice that you're resisting out outside the doors. Yeah, it gave me a lot of calm. when that clicked. Is it something like when we're trying to fight systems, sometimes we are beneficiaries and sometimes we reproduce them even within our own work. I think it's probably partially that. I also think that I again had unrealistic, idealistic expectations that just by really trying to do this really hard, it would succeed, right? Like setting all of this up in this way for all of us to succeed and having a different organizational culture, therefore, you know, we'll have one. It's continuous work, just like the changemaking work we're doing on the outside. Absolutely, absolutely. Okay, thanks for sharing that. What is the book? I know you read a lot. So what is the book that most impacted you? wow, so I think in the end like Sister Outsider by Audre Lorde, whenever I reread any of the essays I see new things in them. It's such a wonderful mirror also about where you are in your own trajectory to see what stands out. And there's just so much in there that's just so relevant still today. Yeah, I think it's truly timeless book. Thanks for sharing. What did you use to value that you no longer value now? I think, well, maybe if I could use a general word for that, it's vanity, vanity metrics. When I won my first landmark case at African Court on human and people's rights, someone said to me, okay, great, now you can retire now, you have this on your track record, so you're done. It's never done, there's always something else, right? There's always another project to start. There's always another award to win. There's another whatever, right? We keep on pursuing accolades. It's like, It's that system that kind of keeps us in the hustle, right? And I'm kind of over it. I keep on thinking, I'm 47 now, I hope that I a lot more time. But I am really deeply reflecting right now, what do I want to spend the rest of my life on? And it's not running after things that will have been forgotten again. Hmm. days later. What matters to me? Those are questions that I'm asking myself constantly right now to decide what I want to be doing. And yeah, the hustle, no. Yeah, And I think that ties in quite well with what you said around wanting more space in your professional and your personal life, because yeah, the rat race is exhausting. There's always another fight. There's always going to be. And I guess that's how the system functions to exhaust you eventually. Right. So I think that that makes sense within that space. So yeah. Okay. I like that. I like that. I mean, I think I'm feeling that as well. Like I'm so tired. just the race and the work and the running, like always, always running. I have a final question for you here, Nani. so we've talked today and you know, you seem like someone who knows yourself. I know you know yourself quite well, even though we're all in, you know, discovery of ourselves. for anyone who's listening to this and say they are struggling with that strong sense of self, which you have. that clarity in your identity. Maybe they're even working within institutions that contradict the values that they have, or they're trying to figure out, should I keep trying to reform something? Should I leave it? Should I start something new? What is one advice or one thing you can recommend for them to do? Ooh, that's a really good question. So besides doing the worst case scenario exercise, which I love because that will really, it really helps bring clarity. if I, if I kind of like pursue this to the fullest, like what's the worst that could happen. It gives a lot of clarity of like what is imagined risk and what is actual risk. So it helps open up space. I tend to think these days, like if this were my last week. Would I be spending my time on this? Yes or no? because we keep on thinking always that we have more time, we have more time, etc. I hope life is long and beautiful for everyone, but life is also very short at the same time. And you should be very mindful what you spend your time and energy on. And sometimes walking away is totally fine. And sometimes it's also fine to decide that this is something you can live with and that you can... find your outlet in a different context. Like it's okay. Like no one's, no one's judging you on that really. I love that. I have, I think I have something similar, maybe a bit more morbid. I always just think I can go out tomorrow and get hit by a bus, you know? So how does that impact my decision if I know that that will happen tomorrow, you know? So I think what you say, like this worst case scenario, because I think oftentimes we exist, especially in decision making, in the ideal. you know, when we don't want to scratch the surface of what seems difficult or what seems unthinkable, you know, and I think it's important to think it. What is the worst case scenario? And then is it real? Is it imagined? I think that's really great. Yeah, if I speak up in the next meeting, will I get fired? Will I be okay with getting fired? Like, there's a lot of clarity as to whether or not you should be speaking up. Like, you can also stop wasting brain space on it then if you decide that this is not a consequence you want to take. Fine, you made a choice, that's okay. But I think like, yeah, getting hit by a bus slash if this were my last week on earth, I do think, yeah. It gives a lot of clarity on what matters to you, right? So... Yeah. jarring. It forces you into thinking because otherwise you're just going to coast in. it makes me uncomfortable, you know? And yeah, but this has been great, Nani. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for sharing. I know a lot of listeners are based in Oslo and they will some of them will get to see you in Oslo when you're here for your book launch in a few weeks, April 16th. So I'm really excited and looking forward to it. I'm really looking forward to it. Thanks so much for the wonderful conversation. That's this week's Overnight Wisdom. If this conversation hit home, you're not alone. Thousands of emerging leaders, leaders, and people are doing the same work, figuring out who they actually are instead of who they think they should be. Subscribe for new episodes every Wednesday. And join the conversation. What's one thing from today you're taking with you? Thanks for listening. I'm Chisom Udeze