How to Do Meaningful Work Without Losing Yourself with Attia Taylor

How do you do meaningful work… without disappearing in it?

This week on Overnight Wisdom, Chisom speaks with Attia Taylor, founder of Womanly Magazine, musician, artist, and health advocate, about what it means to build work that is intentional, community rooted, and deeply human. They talk about identity, service, creativity, health justice, and the emotional cost of doing work that matters, while still trying to hold on to yourself.

They explore the tension between purpose and selfhood. Attia is building work that matters — centering communities often excluded from healthcare and cultural narratives.

They talk about identity clarity in practice — not as a concept, but as something you have to actively protect. From the emotional weight of serving others, to the quiet loneliness of purpose-driven work, to the discipline of asking: who am I beyond what I build, fix, or fight for?

This is a conversation about holding both —
commitment to impact, and commitment to self.

Because meaningful work should expand you.
Not erase you.

Follow Womanly  on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/womanlymag/
Womanly Website: https://www.womanlymag.com/

Transcript

0:04

What does it mean to build something that truly serves people, not just speaks about them? Chisom Udeze, your host on Overnight Wisdom. And today I'm in conversation with Attia Taylor, founder of Womanly Magazine, musician, artist, and health advocate about what it means to build work that is intentional, community-rooted, and deeply human. We talk about identity, service, creativity, health justice, and the emotional of doing work that matters while still trying to hold onto yourself. We talk about why most health systems don't just fail, they exclude. and what it really takes to build something for communities that have been overlooked for far too long. We also go deeper into the loneliness of mission-driven work, Into the tension between the one who helps and remembering who you are beyond that. We go into the question Who are you when you're not fixing, building or proving? This is a conversation about clarity of identity, purpose, and power. And a reminder that meaningful work should not cost you your entire self. Let's jump in. Hi. I'm great. I'm great. It's great to be here. I'm so grateful. You're really sweet. You also have a really great voice. Like you have a very soothing voice. I'm self-conscious about my voice, so that is really nice to hear. No, you have a great voice. I hear a lot of voices these days with this uh podcast and yours is already really soothing. So I'm looking forward to this chat. um Normally I just like to jump in. So I'm going to do the same here. I want to meet you. Can you tell us a little bit about, you know, who you are and how you became the powerhouse that you are? Yeah, absolutely. I am from North Philadelphia, born and raised and my grandparents raised me. My parents were, one was emotionally absent. The other was completely absent. And, you know, I spent a lot of time as a child dreaming about my future. And then once I kind of hit puberty, I became very curious about sexual reproductive health So I bought myself, I got my mom to buy me some books on the body and, but I've always been interested in magazines and print and I remember reading 17 and just being so enamored by the medium of print and books and pictures and how everything has been was laid out for information. So when I got to college at Temple, I studied communication and I got a broad range of what it means to communicate information. I interned at Paper Magazine and very quickly realized that the world of pop media wasn't my jam. I respect the medium, It felt a little bit too limited for me So I ended up getting a job at Planned Parenthood I was an admin and it really just kind of snowballed from there. I learned about how to communicate sexual reproductive health information just because my boss at the time was like, you're really talented and smart. I want you to go out and do stuff in the org. So I learned and then, long story short, the magazine was born out of wanting to build a print magazine that had intention. I am. also a musician. As long as I can remember, I've been wanting to make music, singing, writing, using electronic instruments to build sound walls and create dimensions around sound. So that's another element of what I do, I love that. I did find your music. I was looking you up and like, my gosh, she's a musician too. So that's pretty cool. And thanks for sharing also a bit about, your background and how that impacted you. And perhaps in some sense, and I guess we'll get into it also just shape how you see the world. your point about how you've built womanly magazine I do want to talk about that. It reminds me I guess of what it means to create space when you see a gap, because your magazine is quite specific in terms of who you name. And those communities are often either an afterthought or not really engaged in the same way you have managed to do it. And just from, you know, looking at some of your work and the beauty and the intentionality that goes behind it. So, you know, it's not just. another magazine, you know, trying to fill a gap, like it's really meaningful in the way it's been curated. for listeners who do not know Womanly Magazine, can you tell us a little bit about it? And specifically, I know you already alluded to it, but why does it exist? main reason, the mission for me personally was because I grew up seeing my family, my grandmother who's a black woman, my mother struggle with their health without any guidance or information. So having to go through things that were And I had a light bulb moment when I was right out of college that sometimes it's just a matter of information that that can be a huge difference in someone's life Like reading one line on a book or in a magazine on the Internet can change and save someone's life. And I was thinking about how I'm not seeing health information shared in a way that's inviting, exciting, culturally inclusive. when I think of health information, I think of long blocks of text. think of pamphlets in the doctor's office that are with stock images and it's usually like very out of touch. And I was like, well, why? I love art. I'm an artist. I see so many illustrators and photographers. Now it's blown up on Instagram, creating art that is healthful and it is beautiful and culturally sensitive. And I wanted to get that to the people who need it. And that includes people like my mom and my grandmother, who's now passed, but my grandmother who's alive, she had a heart attack recently. And so this is still a problem, but I wanted to do something in my way that felt intentional and beautiful. because we deserve beauty too. We deserve health packaged in a way that feels like it's for us. And it never is. It's always reactive. it feels so sterile. And everybody comes to me and they're like, I had the worst experience at the doctor's office. I want to hear more. I had a great experience. So I'm trying to bridge the gap between what people experience in the healthcare sector and in their personal lives. We are hopefully uh a conduit for getting people to be excited about taking care of their self or be excited to learn more about what it is they might experience in 10 years because they're going through paraminopause or menopause. You know, it shouldn't be this dread. Ageism is part of it. Racism is part of it. Classism is part of it. as you know, working in health systems, it's a very intricate. infrastructure that often excludes people without privilege in whatever that means and accessibility, people with disabilities are often left out. Black women are often left out. womanly tries to be a voice, but also a platform to share the stories that are often left out and they're intentionally left out. So the last issue we did, it was called The Future is Fat. because fatphobia in our country, probably the world is beyond, beyond. And I learned a lot about it just through creating the issue, but we did that because fat people will always exist, regardless of whether Ozempic is here or the media tries to make you pressure you to be thin, fat people will exist now, have existed in the past, in the present, and will be in the future. And when we think about things like AI and we think about the healthcare system as it is now and in the future, how do we navigate those systems with that inclusion? So that was why that's very kind of the, mission of the work is to say, Hey, here's a problem. And here's a group of people who are being discriminated against or left out or excluded. How do we create a space for them to share their, their, their story and be seen and be heard? you know, what was coming up for me, this week, I had a chat with a group of migrant women in Oslo who are pregnant and about to give birth. Most of them are racialized and they are absolutely terrified. Right. Of course, they're holding the complexity that of course it's great to be in a country where healthcare is free and generally in the US where the chances of say black women dying in pregnancies four times, five times higher than other women or white women specifically. in talking to them, we also understood that we are surviving in the system. Like it's better in Norway, than it is in say the US, but survival is not healthcare. You know, like, so even when you are in a place that quote unquote on paper is functional and works due to racialization, due to your religion, if you're wearing a hijab, for example, due to your disability, you will experience it differently and worse. And That's quite an interesting construct to hold because sometimes people just say, yeah, but I mean, you have free health care. Everything is fine. Like, no, because you still have to navigate the world at this intersection. And then of course, I think about just the US also having lived there, just how mortifying sometimes it can be, especially for, you know, black women, disabled women and yeah. Yeah, it's not black and white. There's no one experience. You know, there's a million experiences and we're not going to be able to catch them all. But if we can try to just get people in the health care system, even we've gotten the attention of major institutions to think about what some of that nuance is when they're providing care or thinking about building new systems for care. So that visibility is for people. to feel seen and heard in their survival, but it's also for those healthcare systems and those nurses and those doctors and the folks on the ground giving care to say, wait, let me think about this person's experience before I expose them to something that might be harmful. What did you learn that you did not know beforehand with this new issue on the future is fat man. I mean, I think it was just through reading interviews and hearing people talk about their experience and just stories. I learned the level as a non-fat person, just like anything, if you're not in that community, you just don't know what you don't know. So I just learned the pain and the struggle and the like the presence of anti-fat bias. in everything. kind of opened, it really opened my eyes. And I had read right before the issue, had read Roxanne Gay's book, Hunger, and that really like, my God, blew my mind. I had no idea the level of discrimination and hate. And it's really pure hate. It's really a lot of people probably projecting, but I mean, society is just not kind to fat people. from a healthcare perspective, I learned how many fat people are being dismissed in the healthcare space because of their weight. They're being told that their weight is the problem when it very much could not be. And fat people are experiencing more pain or dying. because their symptoms are being dismissed at a higher rate. Because it's like, you just need to lose weight. Come back when you lose weight. Because that's probably the problem. it's just, it's not always the case, you know? It's just like, it's being glossed over and that's just leading to poor outcomes. I had no, I mean, I had an idea, but it's just that consciousness, I think, that builds understanding, empathy, and hopefully leads to better outcomes. Absolutely. And I guess as well, just the magnitude, right, of you might anticipate, but then hearing those stories actually makes it a bit more concrete, a lot more concrete, actually. I'm curious, still on this topic, because I know the women you engage are also from diverse backgrounds. Did you see a difference in terms of, fatphobia or their negative experiences with the health care system? Do they have different experiences when they're not in the US? Like if they go to the Caribbean, or somewhere in Africa, does that change or no? I mean, I can only speak from the stories that I've gotten, but we do get quite a few international experiences and it's the same across the board. mean, anti-fat bias is global. It's global. so, mean, obviously we have, it intersects with our healthcare system in the US. And so that has its own problems for women and based on race, based on class. So. you'll probably see a bump up against those other issues we have here in the US. But I don't think anywhere you go, you're going to be treated fairly. You you might, I can't speak to it because based on what I've seen, it seems doubtful. Thanks for sharing. mean, it's you're doing important work, unnecessary work as well, because I don't think I can think of many magazines who shine lights, you know, on this. a big thing for creating womanly. When I was growing up, you know, the magazines I was consuming were thin, white women often. It was more pages than not. You know, it has gotten way more inclusive over the years, but, I wanted to create a magazine that you could flip through every page and see someone that looks like you. or have an experience that resonates with you. And that's always the intention. Every issue is to say, who's not being included in those other magazines? Let's get them here. Let's honor them because those stories matter. And I was just tired of seeing the same old same old. I wanted something fresh. I feel that people need it and want it. yeah, love that. Okay, so I want to talk a bit more about you. today I want to focus on identity clarity. in your own words, how do you see yourself? in the world and what type of leader are you? That's a deep question. You know, I spend so much time in the weeds with other people's that sometimes I forget about my own. Hmm. I am someone who is deeply introspective. I spend a lot of time thinking about myself and my mental health and my past and how it informs my future. and who I want to be. I am someone who is a product of community. And from the good and the bad, I grew up in a boarding school environment. I to boarding school from the age seven to the age 17. And that communal space was pivotal in how I think about the way the world works, how I need to rely on others to get to where I need to go. That has both driven me in my work and in my personal life, especially in terms of my career. When I was 17, I joined an organization as a participant called Girls Rock in Philadelphia. It's a camp for girls and non-binary children from age, I think it's like eight to 17. It's a week long camp where you learn self-esteem and you learn an instrument and you play music. And I went when I was 17 and then I volunteered for like a decade or something after that. And that was also very communal and it taught me how important because everyone working a lot of most of the folks who are Running the camp or volunteers so I saw that structure work and I saw the change from one week of children Coming into the camp and leaving and so that really kind of lightbulb for me this community structure works to help people build a better life for themselves and understand the opportunity that they have in front of them. I show up in the world as a health advocate, someone who is willing to do the hard work to roll up my sleeves if something needs to be done to make change. I very quickly learned where my place is in the movement. as I've gotten older, being in the streets and being kind of on the ground is a harder fight for me. But I've learned that through organization and community development, I've been able to have a place in the movement. And I often think, and a lot of people say, you know, oh, I feel so bad because I'm not, I'm not like protesting. I'm not out in the streets. I go to protests here and there. But the work I do is daily. It's like wake up thinking about this work, go to bed thinking about this work, sometimes dreaming about this work. And so I know that I'm in it. I don't have to leave my house sometimes or all the time to be able to know that I'm keeping grounded in what's the goal, which is liberation. Yeah, that's where I show up. I'm very aware of the structures that are against this work, the structures that are ironclad to knock this down or not push forward or keep it from receiving funding. But I can't stop. I can't stop. I just won't. I won't stop. You know, as exhausting as it is, I've been pivoting and pivoting and pivoting because I know how deeply people appreciate it and how much people need it. Thanks for sharing. A lot is happening in my head right now. So I have a couple of follow ups. But first, I also just want to affirm on protesting, will never find me on the street protesting. I don't do crowds. can't manage it. For me, it's borderline impossible. The only time I was out at a protest was during Black Lives Matter. protests here in Oslo. And even so, I kept a distance from the crowd. But there are other ways in which I show up that I can measure, that I see that I actually materialize. I think, oftentimes injustice works. we judge if people are not showing up. As we show up, we think that they're not doing enough or their work does not matter. I think we all have to show up. where we can, I often think about change as a flywheel. We have to tinker where we can, all of us, kind of just like moving things forward. So just wanted to say that also affirm that that resonated, because I don't go out. I mean, I'll show up in the streets if I need to, like Black Lives Matter, Free Palestine. I will show up, but I'm not the every week protester. just, I'm not, no. And I respect and I appreciate those people because that's necessary work. But it's just not me. absolutely. I think they also do really well at the intersection of I want to talk to the leaders, I want to talk to the policymakers, I want to talk to the community. Yeah. So I think there's some people who are really great organizers, even for showing up for protests. And I think that's important. But yeah, I think there are different ways in which we show up and I think there needs to be grace and support for that as well. I actually wanna ask you, I do understand the passion you have for this work as somebody who also is passionate about a lot of work that is exhausting. I know that... there is also a loneliness and an isolation that sometimes comes with doing that work. So even though you get the support and you know that it is beneficial to the community that you were solving for, there is also that isolation in it. and also when you were sharing, you talked about the people and you know how it's beneficial for them. Who supports you? How do you replenish? Yeah, that's a good question. I am often lonely in the work. I'm often overwhelmed in the work. I'm often exhausted in the work. And I grew up in a space where we didn't complain. Right? It's like, just do it. Don't complain. Don't complain about it. Just get up and do it. So I feel very conscious of how I share about my struggles in the work because I don't want to seem ungrateful or, you know, this need to appear like I have it all together. So I fall apart at home. I fall apart in front of my husband. I fall apart in front of my close friends who are also in this work, in this movement. I'm good friends with folks who kind of are doing similar work as me. And we do have moments together where it's just like, Let me tell you girl, this is crazy. Or I'm so sick and tired of this. And so I do have my, I have my pods. I have my friends from childhood and they hold me up and they keep me together. Some days I just, it's hard. The fundraising is hard. That's the hardest part is trying to get people to financially support those work and believe in it from a financial perspective. Because often the folks we're trying to serve are not the people who are going to be our funders. which is fine. That's the point. So going, you know, this direction to help people it's a tough thing when I speak this language. I'm so, this is a learning curve for me asking for money and being in these spaces where I have to code switch and pretend like I'm seasoned in finding fundraising. don't, I'm an artist. I come from the work, the people who have been in need of this platform. So for me to start going over to the other side is, it's been a struggle. Hmm. I can imagine. I was having this conversation recently. Sometimes when you have courage to do what you do, you have a lot of courage. And I think that sometimes, at least maybe in my own experience and in my friends who doing similar work is people sometimes system structures and also community members, at least in my case. only see you as that courage. Somebody needs to take the fight, ask Chisom Somebody needs to do this, she'll probably do it. And I think there is that duty of care that we owe to each other, both as community members within a practice or a movement. And also there's a responsibility then for systems to support that. But of course, if you're doing something that is even a tad bit more interesting than vanilla, then it's like, oh my gosh, I don't want to give you money because it could be a risk. Why do I want to give you money? Why don't I do just something that feels nice? Let's put face mask on our skin and then we're good. Right. So yeah, the priorities are a bit different in that sense. So I guess one, thank you for sharing about, you know, your experience. think it's meaningful. I think it's important that we voice it more because I know a lot of people who doing this work who are exhausted and you know like you no matter what they will get up they'll do it again right and I think that there needs to be more care both from companies from institutions from funders and I think even more importantly from the community where possible as well so just thanks for sharing that. Of course, absolutely. I should share about it more. think, thank you for this platform because I'm an introvert. I don't talk a lot about my problems publicly. But I do need folks to know, like, if you respect and appreciate this work, there is a lot of, we are not some big corporate giant. I don't have any, you know, didn't have a windfall of money at some point, I got seed funding. There was none of that. This was from scratch, and it's still from scratch. So it's important to know that this is a grassroots movement. You know, it might look glamorous, the design's pretty, but it's grassroots. It's very scrappy. A lot of time is volunteered in this work. Yes, I think all of us collectively also need to be more intentional about where we put our money. know, one of the things I've seen, you know, at least in my neck of the woods in Europe, in Norway, for example, oftentimes even members of our community will support another thing financially, but from our own set up, there's still that expectation of this work should be free. right, in some sense. So I think there's that, but there's also just being mindful in, you know, maybe we don't even have money to give, but where do we have leverage? Maybe it's a workplace, like how can we say, hey, by the way, Womanly Magazine, can we think about them for our CSR? Right, so thinking more broadly around, yes, you have to go through the hurdle of applying for grants and funding, which is Yeah. m know, I think each and every one of us can evaluate where do we have, you know, access maybe at our workplace to say, hey, by the way, might you consider donating to this organization because of the work that you're doing? So just also saying it for listeners who are listening to this, we're not all completely powerless. You know, it's just in interrogating Where do we have leverage and how can we, you know, tweak it to support the people we want to see thrive. 100%. Yeah, it's. It's little things. Sometimes it's just sharing about womanly. Maybe share it in your news, in your work newsletter or on your Instagram or sometimes just donate $5 a month. Like it's little things add up. So yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I want to talk to you a bit about success. What did it used to mean to you and what does it mean now? Is it the same? Has it evolved? It definitely evolved because so much of the success that I think I envisioned when we started or even midway has been happening and that success is cultural. It's resonating with people in a way that is growing and being spread and shared. I've always wanted womanly to be a resource to be shared. And that's why I created a print magazine because print lives longer than the internet. Print is, you know, it's really something that sticks around. It sits on coffee tables, it sits in doctor's offices, it can be revisited, it can be shared, it can be gifted. The internet is way more fleeting. you know, we have another issue coming out this fall and to see people excited about it we got like over a thousand submissions and to see it shared and respected in a way that feels culturally authentic is success to me. That feels successful. That's the way that I want the success to keep going. And just to go back to what my success looks like going forward would be to build a sustainable model for keeping womanly alive on its own. So right now it relies on a lot of free labor. It relies on a lot of community involvement and that's great, but we need more institutional support. We need funding to keep this going. So right now, myself and team are just working on building models and frameworks that have the ability to keep the work going, even if I'm not able to do it. Like I don't wanna be the reason womanly exists. I don't want that to be, if I don't wanna do it anymore, it ends. I wanted to live on because I think it's an important resource or whatever it looks like in an iteration after maybe it changes to something else. How does it stay in people's lives as a resource in whatever iteration in the next 10 years, the next 20 years, next 30 years? how has my legacy carrying on to future generations through womanly. So financial success, cultural success, all of those things. I love that. The goal is always to not be indispensable to whatever it is you're building, right? It needs to survive you in a sense. um So just leaning into this for a bit around financial success. Can you frame what that looks like? Because I'm just imagining who is listening to this and they want a little bit of specificity around what can they do for you? tomorrow to support financial success for women. Yeah, that's a good question. We have a number of ways that we build financial sustainability. One of those ways is through the community, monthly or yearly donations, which includes a copy of the print issue. It's our membership or subscription, however you want to call it. It's a financial contribution, monthly or yearly. We also have You know, we work with advertisers quite a bit, whether they're small businesses or larger brands. We only work with brands that we believe are going to be beneficial to our audience that, you know, we want people to put their money in the right places and feel like they can trust what we're sharing. that that the financial piece is huge because advertising dollars really do create the difference, at least at the beginning. We also have a fiscal sponsor. We're fiscally sponsored by the field. You can make a tax deductible donation of any amount, which you can find on our website to donate. So those are the main three ways, I think, right now that we create sustainability. also, we do brand partnerships as well. We create films, I think. The work is so flexible, but the first three are the ways that we want to be kind of keeping things afloat. Okay, I have subscription, have advertisements, and there's the donation through the field. And a question for people who are not in the US who might want to support what does that look like? Good question. mean, buying our magazines, we ship internationally. everything we do have is able to be supported internationally. yeah, that's great. Thanks for sharing. Okay, so I do want to ask you about representation. It's something that is, I think anyone who just looks up your work can see that that is important. And oftentimes, representation, the way it shows up in society is as a token. So how do you differentiate, even say the people you work with or in the systems in which you operates in. What does true representation actually look like? That's a good question. I don't think it's an easy answer because there's so many experiences that need to be highlighted and it's delicate, right? You can't just throw, we need to cover this. let's throw, you you have to make sure it feels aligned and the folks that you're representing are. their voices are in that representation, right? So I can't write something from the perspective of a fat person or a trans person because I'm not those things. So the opportunity has to be really authentic and really has to respect and honor the community that it's trying to serve. And I think, a lot of, we see a lot in Pride Month, right? Like, Capital one has a pride logo and then that's what you're mentioning in like it's very shallow. It's very like hey We do it. It's like but but it's really the day-to-day work It's really the like how are you supporting if you're a bank? How are you supporting trans people every day? How are you supporting people who are financial? What do you call it? who need financial support or who have uh financial illiteracy. So people who need to learn about finance and just how are you showing up for gay people, for trans people in your systems? Not on Pride, not on in June, not on Black History Month. Like sure, great, fine, thanks. But that's really a money grab. if we're being real, like don't do this just to get our money, do this because you believe in the community and they don't. So I just, want to, I don't know what Capital One is doing to be clear. I don't have any info. That was an example. But a lot of these organizations, do it, right? In June, all, a lot of their logos change. And then you think, know, the remaining 11 months of the year, they're still queer, they're still gay, they're still trans. Same with Black History Month, right? It's like, it's not just February or wherever else, because it's celebrated at different times during the year in different countries. But still, people are not just Black for that one month in the year, you know? I think something you said earlier about courage really resonated. It takes a lot of courage. When I see brands like, I think Lush is doing a really good job at showing up, like for Palestine, for trans people. Brands who show up when they don't need to or have to, when they're donating funds to organizations, when they're, you know, really... showing what they're made of when it's not June, when the cameras aren't on them, when there's no press. There are brands doing it. I don't think that every brand is guilty, but I also know that there's a lot more room, especially for the big guys. I think that it needs to be more set in stone because suddenly there's a boycott or from one side and you're done. So when the fire gets hot, where are you standing? Who are you standing with when your bottom line is threatened? You know, I think when a lot of people think about their financial success on the short term, but when you think about a brand success, what happens right now is really gonna say what happens to you in 50 years. What you did then is going to resonate a lot more with people when it matters most. So I think corporations, if they really want to think about their bottom lines, they'd be smarter about how they respect and treat people who consume their products. It's just about respect. It is a long game. It's just respect. is. And I think it's also tells us a lot about those companies, right? Or the leadership because leadership can change and then they do different things. But you know, it's easy to have great values when it's smooth seas, right? It's like values are tested when things are not easy. When you have something to lose. How do you show up? Because it's easy to be cool and groovy when everything is fine. When shit hit the fan, how are you showing up in the world? Yeah, I think that matters too. It does. It does. And we see it all the time. We see it all the time. This ping, this back and forth ping pong. This fire is hot. It's a different administration. So, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK. You work at Parenthood, which is an interesting institution, a necessary institution, especially within the context of the US and health care. And at the same time, you're working outside of the system with womanly. Do you find that those identities Personally, no. Planned Parenthood has always been, at least my team, the folks that I work with have always been supportive of womanly and they get it. They get why both, why I need to do both. They understand. the difference. So I've never felt pressure. I've never felt like I couldn't manage the institutional work and the grassroots work because so much of the work of Planned Parenthood is rooted in the work of people who are on the ground. And the mission and the core of Planned Parenthood is so rooted in the people. That it's hundred year old organization is, you know, it's a thing, but it is still the people who reap the benefits of Planned Parenthood are still the people who reap the benefits of womanly. Like we have the same mission at the end of the day to give people care and make sure that they feel heard and seen. So I think it's given me a lot of perspective. I think it's taught me a lot, given me a lot of nuance in the way that I navigate conversations around funding, around marketing. And so I'm grateful for the experiences. within and between. Okay, I love that. Thanks for sharing. So just to nuance this, I don't think I could do one thing in my life ever. I think I would be bored. I will probably not thrive. I need that expansiveness. So just wondering, do you think you are the same? Yeah. Yeah, I'm the same. I complain about being spread thin, but then I need the nuance. I need the challenge. And I want to help. I need to what needs to be done and then like... helping do it. I want to be on the bird's eye view. I want to see what's going on. So I do like it. I mean, would I make it a little easier at times? Yeah, probably. But I don't mind. need the busyness. I need the rush. The pressure helps, yeah. Question for you on that actually. Just curious about why do you need to be the help? Why do you need to help? That's a great question. I don't know. I just feel that it's it's. It's in my DNA, you know, I... was raised by a single black woman and her mother was a single black woman and who are just, we do what we have to do. Like this feels like work I have to do. It doesn't feel like work. Yes, I want to do it, but it doesn't feel always like I want to do it. Like it's work I feel that I need to do because if I don't, who's gonna help? Who's gonna do it? Like. there's a reason there's not like a million Womanly's - You know, because it's hard and it's not, it looks glam, but it's not always that glamorous. It's a lot of rolling up your sleeves. I just feel it in my soul that I need to be of service. You know, and it doesn't feel because of the... the benefits I see people receiving from that help. It doesn't feel like I'm working for someone else's wealth or I'm building someone else's portfolio. I'm on the ground. I feel like I'm like educating and serving people in a way that fills my heart and fills my soul. And I don't do it for that. I do it because I know people need it, but it does, it makes me feel whole. Right, right, right. So an identity question for you. Who are you when you're not helping? These are the good questions that I need to have asked my therapist should be asking me these questions Who am I am I am a Bit of a goofball. I like comedy. I like having Really cozy intimate conversations with people and in absorbing art in a way that's like otherworldly. I just think music and illustration and every piece of art that people make that comes from the soul is so filling to me. That's why like working with art because it feels so obvious that health and art go together. And so when I'm not helping, I'm absorbing, I'm reading people's work and trying to create you know, just be my best self, trying to be filled by, what I missed in childhood around having emotional support from my parents and, trauma that I've experienced. I fill those holes with art and love from my friends. And yeah, I like, I like a good time. I like a vibe. I'm a very chill person. I don't take anything too serious. I just want to enjoy life while I'm here because you often hear about leaders in this space. dying early or having so much stress that they get sick. And I don't want to stress myself out to the point where I get cancer or I'm like, I already have chronic illness. I have my own issues with mental health and I just want to enjoy every piece of life that I can when I'm not working. And even if I can enjoy work, that would be great. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. But when I'm not working, I'm watching. film or I'm going to a show and just trying to be in the world. Yeah. I love that. Thanks for sharing. I did ask these questions because I see a little bit of myself in your answers and I also had to see through a lot of this what, how, why for myself. I think that uh last year, for example, I was drained by the work and I think there are some people who are able to easily detached themselves from injustice when it's happening. And I don't have that muscle yet. And that means that a lot of things tend to weigh on me. And I think one of the things that has been helpful, is using - my own framework to ask myself, who am I when I'm not helping, when I'm not supporting, when I'm not building, when I'm not trying to fix the endless problems in the world. Because there's that sense of there's so much and for me, of course I have kids now and I'm thinking I need to make it better for them I need to live it better for them, you know, and I had to unlearn in many ways that I Mean I still show up but then I'm thinking how am I showing up? am I showing up? Cuz I had to learn that that was only how I could be valuable. I'm also valuable when I'm you know relaxing or finding joy or doing something else like making candles, which I love. I'm not grappling with the world's problem. I'm just thinking about how can I make this more sustainable for my home? So that was what I was asking. Yeah. No, I think you're, I mean, thank you for asking that question because I don't think I ask it enough to myself. I don't think I think about myself outside of work enough. I don't rest enough. I just work because it feels like my identity and that's not fair. It's not fair to my body. It's not fair to my mind. It's not fair to my soul. It's not fair to my ancestors. They didn't work hard for me to keep working hard. They want me to rest too, you know? So I appreciate that question and I'm not a mother. So I appreciate your perspective around children because I want to have kids one day. And I think I'm often like, what's going to happen with me dedicating all of my time to this? Am I going to have a hard struggle with being a mother and being this person who constantly has to be on working and helping? And it sounds like there's still a pull, but it of tethers to your children. Yes, I mean, you have to at some points, I think it forces you to draw a line because I reflect on even when my kids were younger where I'd bring them with me and then it was easier to rationalize because I could always have them with me in the rooms. But now they're in school. And then it's like, I want to be here for them, you know, and I also want to do a lot better than my parents did, you know, just in, I mean, My daughter sometimes asks me questions like, why did you do that? You doing this, why can't I do it? I'm just like, my gosh, I'm already killing parenting in a great way because I would never dare ask my mom that question. But look at you, six years old asking me this. And I'm just like, OK, I see the generation, - trauma. It's it's it's stopping with me. And that is the goal. You know, but my point's been, I think for me. The older they get, the more it becomes clear because oftentimes this work also takes not just the energy, but it also takes my money, right? Like I do the nonprofit bit a lot of times just like on my own time. And it's a lot of time. because I think oftentimes when you do three, four things or even two things, people think, you must do it half and half. No, I do it full time. just sleep less. Right. So I think for me learning to also create boundaries. for myself, because it's easy when we think about creating boundaries for others or for the outside world, but I knew I also had to create boundaries for myself. I don't need to save. I cannot save everyone or everything. You know, like I also need to prioritize these kids that I have at home. I need to show up for them. You know, and I often reflect on a bit morbid, but I often think of if I go out on the streets more and get hit by a bus. You know, like how would I feel in terms of did my body rest or did I work myself into a ground? so I'm still framing it even for myself. What does it mean to actually receive care, not from the world, but for myself? What does it mean to belong to myself, not to community? Community is wonderful, but do I even belong to myself? Yeah. How do I show up for me? How do I hold my boundaries? How do I respect myself? How do I honor my home? And also how do I replenish myself? Because, and that's the thing I'm also thinking about is I don't also want to slave for my children. Cause if my cup is full, I can show up better for them. Yeah. So how do I prioritize myself even in the work of being a parent? So there are a lot of things I grapple with as yeah. It's very powerful and important. to keep those in mind at the forefront. am, yeah, I'm very grateful to hear you say those words, because it's a needed reminder and something that I can also remind the folks who I know who are also doing this work and are tired. So, yeah. Okay, Okay, I want to talk a little bit about your music. I looked up your album Space Ghost. First, I want to know about that name. And second, is there a connection between your music and health. Yes. Space Ghost is my debut album. It's a culmination of songs I wrote over my 20s and my late teens. I wrote the name Space Ghost comes from. So when I was a kid, I watched TV. I was babysat by the TV for hours and hours, so much so that I'd go into the nighttime and adult swim. I don't know if you... You all have adult swim. Okay. So adult swim would come on and space goes coast to coast. And then I'd be watching these adult cartoon shows and I'd be like, I don't understand it, but I'm still watching. I'm watching TV because this is, it's good. So that the loneliness I experienced, the isolation I experienced, the sadness, the pain, but also the joy I got from TV and cartoons and the imagination. think that's a lot why I like illustration and color and I just, it was so much of my life. And so that was the name of the album. There's a song called Space Ghost. And it's, was, the album's about trauma. The album's about childhood abandonment. It's about feeling lonely and isolated and regret. And it's questioning why choices were made. And I'm proud of it as a first album. I have another one coming out next year probably. And it's so much better and different. But yeah, and that one's also, it's very connected to when I'm a musician, when I'm playing music, when I'm writing, which I don't get to do often enough because of this work is so renewing. When I was writing the album that's coming out, my next album, it felt like I was channeling. something the things that I was performing as I was writing and recording the album felt, didn't feel like me. It felt like something had come over me and I don't ever get that spiritual experience in anything else in my life. Maybe when I'm meditating, but it feels when I'm making art, feel so free. I feel so myself and That's why I keep doing it because it feels like a portal to something, to somewhere, or for someone, or for myself. I feel so free and it just, it takes away stress. I don't do it enough. I would love a world where I have more space and time to write, but I'm very proud of this album, especially because I didn't have a lot of time to do it. So I really had to lock in and record and get it done. So I'm excited to release some new songs and Space Ghost is like always my little baby. It's very much experimental, fun project that I'll forever be grateful to have put in the world. Hmm. yeah. Not that you asked for permission, but I do think you should do more of the thing that you love. Because just listening to you and watching you talk about, you know, your music and your arts, like there's a shift, there's a difference, you know, like there's a little bit more joy and you are not going to get more time. You're not, there's 24 hours in a day. You have to create time. have to enforce it. You have to. I'm a bit militant about like creating space for the things that I want. And I think it's something that brings you joy. Imagine if you can say 30 minutes a day, I will do this. rain, come shine. I think that's meaningful too. You don't need four hours, so to say. No, you're absolutely right. I always need that reminder. Thank you. And thanks for sharing about your music. sounds, yeah, the process sounds just beautiful, like purging in a sense. And I look forward to the next one. I want to talk a little bit around leading an organization where there's a lot of work that happens with volunteers. So people who choose to be there. I don't know to what degree they show up on a day to day. But just curious, what has that taught you in terms of leading others? I am guessing you are in uh touch with different personalities, different identities, different ways of being and working. How have you honed your leadership skills in that sense? Yeah, mean, it's been so womanly, it will be 10 next year, which is mind blowing. And over the years, I mean, we started as all volunteer, just my friends and family, me telling them that I had this idea and them not skipping a beat to start working on it with me. And I just kind of became the person. guiding them. wouldn't say leader. I was guiding the work. And then it grew to a place where people I didn't know became volunteers, where I was actually having to say and make decisions that felt bigger. And then we grew. We were a massive team at one point, and this was pre-pandemic. And so, and then the pandemic hit and so it was just kind of like boom of like, okay, got to reevaluate. And so we kind of, took it way down, So now we are, we are like three people with sporadic volunteering here and there, So what that has taught me about myself as a leader, it has taught me a lot of patience, trust, trusting people, especially with volunteers because they're They're not waiting on a paycheck. You have to trust that they know what they're doing. They're coming here because they're passionate and they have expertise. It doesn't always go the way you want it to go and that's okay. You just have to be willing to be patient. If I was like, oh, I have this pot of money and I need you to do this job, it's a lot more straightforward. But when you're relying on people in their time, you have to be patient. have to say, take your time. What do you need to support you? You you really have to be giving in other ways because you can't give financially. So it has taught me a lot about empathy and compassion and it has taught me. just what you would imagine in any traditional leadership role, but just with more grace and that it doesn't have to be this like hierarchical process that people just like somehow do because perform because it's like the capitalistic way. yes, there's some decisions I have to make, but. We make decisions together as a team. I run everything by everybody that needs to be, that things need to be run by. Like there's no, everything's got to come up to me. I like to give people responsibility. I like to give them trust and grace to grow because a lot of the time the opportunity I'm offering is grow your work. I can't ask you to be your best self or your best, do your best work all the time. You're learning. I'm learning. I'm learning what it takes for you to do your job. And so I think having that like grace and having that like understanding that we're both building our careers together and we're relying on each other to do make this mission happen. It has built my character a lot and really understanding just people's needs from a, we're really tight community. We talk a lot about the work, but we also talk about politics. talk about each other's lives and, you know, very personal stuff. We're all like on Slack. so I built a, like a bond with these people that goes beyond what you would imagine going into work at a corporate job would. We are way closer. It feels very familial. So I'm very proud of the community that we've built together and I'm proud to be the person, you know, kind of stewarding. the work. Yeah, that's beautiful. um what keeps you up at night? Ugh. The American politics, the world that we live in, Palestine. Yeah, I mean, the immigration situation we have here with ICE, it keeps me up. My own trauma keeps me up at night. Things that I've experienced that I have survived. Things that my mother has survived that keeps me up at night. Things that... were violence against women and girls that we experienced and that women and girls are experiencing in the world right now. That keeps me up. That keeps me angry. And it keeps me up. Trying to meditate and do things that make it easier for me to rest and take care of myself. But there are times when it's just overwhelmingly painful. And it's not this isolated thing. Like all of those things I just listed, they're all connected. So it's not like, I have this problem, this problem. No, this is the problem. Yeah. Thanks for sharing. I can relate, completely relate. What are you aspiring to with womanly, your music? You've actually shared a bit about your music, so we know there's an album coming. But what is your next becoming? My next becoming... is I don't know. I think I'm at a crossroads in a lot of ways. I'd like to be able to independently run womanly without a full-time job one day. I think that would be a goal of mine to reach more people with the information that we create with more support from brands and institutions and community. As a musician, I'd like to just keep making music. I see it as an outlet. I hope that it resonates with people, but if it doesn't, that's okay too. I just like making it and I want to keep doing it. I want to perform more shows and just be able to be an artist. I'd like to leave New York one day. Yeah? Where would you like to go? Somewhere green with woods and not, want to overlook a mountain. I want to overlook a field. I don't want to see buildings for a good portion of my life. I was born in Philly and I moved here and I just never been outside of the city. Hmm. and I want to escape this mentality that I have to be connected all the time. I feel like that's contributing to me not being able to rest. I want to be an artist in the woods. I want to do that one day. So that's That's where I want to be. Yeah, it will happen. It will happen. If you could speak to younger Attia what would you say to her? say everything you wanted you got. Everything you wanted you got and you will continue to get. Because everything that I dreamt of when I was a child I am living. I am experiencing the best of myself. I am very grateful and privileged and I never want to take that for granted. I'd also tell her everything that you went through is going to shape who you are and You're going to survive it. You will survive it. It's going to be hard at times, but you have have survived a lot and you will survive a lot I love that for you. Thanks for sharing. Thank you for sharing. was beautiful. If there's someone listening to this who's at the edge of their own becoming or they're not sure how to find their path, what can they do? From your experience, how can this start? think look in look internally dig deep go inside don't look outside we get like a little spiritual but the We all have it in us to know what we need to do and where we need to go. And if you look inward enough and you listen, you quiet listen, you will hear it. whether you accept it or not is another thing. But what you're supposed to do and where you're supposed to be, if that's not where you are right now, can be found inward. You know, there's a lot of things I think we need to spiritually before we get there. And so find out what that work is and get that work, do that work on yourself to become who you want to be and get where you want to go. But you can't get there if you have roadblocks. I think a lot of the time we are our own, you know, biggest roadblock. think I've spent a lot of time working on breaking down the things that I felt like were barriers to getting better at being a friend, being a partner, being better to myself. I'm still getting there, but just having that space cleared of like mental anguish and that trauma that kind of just shows up around every corner, knowing whether you can heal from that or place that somewhere that doesn't block you. So just look inward. and work on yourself. Go to therapy. Go do a sport or like find a way for you to shed. Hmm. Because if you're not happy, whatever it is in you is the answer. It's not anything external. You can get out of that. You can get through that. That is such great advice. It takes work. You know, don't want to do the work, you're going to stay right where you are. Thanks for sharing. Plus one on that it's absolutely spot on. What is a book that most impacted you? I always say this, but Siddhartha by Herman Hess, I read it in high school I have about six or seven of his books and they're all really the same. And they kind of resonate with the last question you asked, which was, how do you know what you're supposed to be doing? What your spiritual path is? And that book is just about that. And all of his books are really about a singular character. on a journey to discovery and figuring out what they're supposed to be doing, why they're here and who they are. And I have always felt like I had a mission and a journey. And so everything I've been doing therapy and in my personal life has been to make sure nothing gets in the way of that. Hmm. Thanks for sharing. For someone who is performing success at the moment, instead of building what actually matters to them, peer pressure or whatever it is, what's one thing you want them to know? Be yourself. I think that the authenticity of who you are is going to outshine any performance. It's going to make it so much easier to get through the day if you can just manage to be yourself and let go of identities that you feel are rooted in insecurity or fear of losing something. If you can't be yourself, and keep what you have, it's not worth it. Let it go. Be yourself, always. Like never ever compromise who you are for anything. Yes, love that. For people who are building something that's mission driven, know, or serving a community like you are, what is a practical advice you can offer them in also taking care of themselves? Hmm. I might not be the best person for that. Okay. You are the best person for that because you have to think about it and then you have to make sure that you do it. I know, and my feet are held to the fire. I just don't want it to be cliche and not be something I'm doing. Of course. Or maybe something you know you should be doing even if you're not. you I would say just take time to go inward. Meditate right in your journal. Find time, like you said, 30 minutes a day. Find time to be present. I started exercising regularly last year, because I was always like, I really want to exercise. The step was just to start doing it. So I started doing it last year, 30 minutes a day, and that made so much difference for me. And I started meditating again. I just been finding those like, find what your rituals are, find the things that make you feel grounded in yourself, or like at least closer to who you want to be. And do that more often. Make sure it feels good to you or like soothing or rooted in your spirit and soul. yeah, love it. what did you used to value that you no longer value? Mmm. I used to value. people's opinions. Mmm. I mean I do but like way differently. Like, I respect people's opinions now, certain opinions, but everybody's opinion. How that relates to me is so different than it used to be. I don't perform, I don't change, I don't do anything because I think someone's gonna think something about me or... Actually I'll go the opposite. I'll get petty with it. I'll like make sure what you believe about me is true. I'll just be real obvious about it. Like I know what you think and it's true. I don't care what people think about me as much. You know, I do obviously have my moments, but I'm in my flow. I'm in my flow. And it's so useful. think just cracking that is so important because oftentimes we perform for the world at work and with our friendships and saying what we think and standing up for what we value. And I think that there's something quite liberating about just thinking, you know, other people's opinion of me is none of my business. Yes, I will listen to what I respect, but then I take what I need to from it, you know, and Exactly Yeah a reminder for me too because sometimes you get on social media and you're like Should I post this? Where are people gonna think? Blah, blah. What's my family gonna think? Who cares? If it makes you happy, do it. Don't hurt others, but if it's harmless and it makes you happy, do it. Who cares? Who cares? It's not that deep. I have a final question for you. So today we've talked on identity clarity. Yes, you seem to know who you are. And also you have clarity around your work and why you choose to do it. I guess I want to offer something to the audience here with us in terms of what it means to find alignment. I think it's rare that people actually do, you know, who have to still work in a standard employment space, find something that also aligns with the work they are deeply passionate about. So in terms of just an offering to whoever is listening to this, who's on the path to find... alignment. I know you've already shared around going inward but I wonder is there anything else that comes up for you that you can offer to them? Yeah, that's a good question. I get asked this a lot, honestly, because a lot of people are like, you know, I work at a corporate job that I'm really not passionate about. can I volunteer? Try things. Try things out. There's a lot of organizations that need help or need support. Learn about them. If you have like a passion for pets or you want to help the homeless, the houseless, or you want to, you know, whatever it is. try little things and just be of service and then there will be work to follow. So if you want to switch your career, depending on how young you are and where you are financially intern, you know, like I did a lot of interning in college and it helped me so much, a lot of unpaid internships. So create opportunity for yourself outside of the work. You know, if you have a weekend where you feel rested enough, you go to the soup kitchen and volunteer, do something that feels like fills your soul and the rest will follow. You will meet people in those spaces, you will meet organizers, you will meet leaders, or just reach out to someone you know who's doing that work and just say, hey, can I chat with you about getting into that career path or making the pivot? Rely on your community. People want to help. People are here to help. We don't live in an environment or a society where community is not a factor. I love that. Thank you so much for sharing. Thank you for being here with me and being present for this conversation. I'm not sure what I expected walking into it because we hadn't spoken before, but it feels like we have. So this was really nourishing. Thank you. Thanks for being here. really needed this. I was having a day yesterday. I was having one of those, oh, why am I doing this days? But this helps. It was a big reminder and I appreciate you for giving me the opportunity to speak about my work and my life and asking me the real. questions I need to be asking myself. And you're phenomenal and I look forward to continuing to follow your career and your work and seeing you develop as a person. So cool. Thank you. Thank you. And likewise, and thank you for the work you do. We should all thank you for this work. It's brilliant. Thank you. That's this week's Overnight Wisdom. If this conversation hit home, you're not alone. Thousands of emerging leaders, leaders, and people are doing the same work, figuring out who they actually are instead of who they think they should be. Subscribe for new episodes every Wednesday. And join the conversation. What's one thing from today you're taking with you? Thanks for listening. I'm Chisom Udeze