Hope Is Not a Strategy: Jameson Timba on Clarity and Defiance in Politics

Today’s guest is Jameson Timba, a steadfast advocate for democracy whose name has become synonymous with courage, conscience, and conviction in Zimbabwe’s political narrative. A former Minister of State in the Office of the Prime Minister and a current leading figure within the Citizens Coalition for Change, Timba has long stood at the intersection of policy and principle.

This is a man who has not only written legislation but has also lived its consequences, most recently spending over five months in detention for daring to gather and remember the lives of Africa’s children. And yet, through it all, his voice has not wavered. In fact, it has only grown clearer.

Today, we speak with someone who doesn’t just talk about freedom. He risks for it.
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Chapters 

00:00 Podcast Intro
00:34 Jameson Timba Introduction
02:01 Journey into Politics
04:28 The Fight for Change
07:14 Media Freedom and Governance
09:46 Insights from Inside Government
12:02 The Role of Democracy
14:54 Vision for Zimbabwe's Future
17:30 Citizen Engagement and Mindset
20:20 Navigating Political Repression
23:10 Personal Cost of Activism
26:03 Understanding Courage
29:02 Courage and the Pursuit of Change
30:02 Hope as a Driving Force
31:27 Transforming Incarceration into a Platform for Justice
34:13 Growth and Evolution in Leadership
35:57 The Importance of Planning for Young Leaders
38:46 Africa's Role on the Global Stage
41:32 The Future of Africa and Collective Responsibility
42:57 Lessons in Leadership
46:29 Staying True to Oneself
49:08 Rituals for Grounding and Reflection
51:03 Outro

Chapters

• 0:00 Podcast Intro
• 0:34 Jameson Timba Introduction
• 2:01 Journey into Politics
• 4:28 The Fight for Change
• 7:14 Media Freedom and Governance
• 9:46 Insights from Inside Government
• 12:02 The Role of Democracy
• 14:54 Vision for Zimbabwe's Future
• 17:30 Citizen Engagement and Mindset
• 20:20 Navigating Political Repression
• 23:10 Personal Cost of Activism
• 26:03 Understanding Courage
• 29:02 Courage and the Pursuit of Change
• 30:02 Hope as a Driving Force
• 31:27 Transforming Incarceration into a Platform for Justice
• 34:13 Growth and Evolution in Leadership
• 35:57 The Importance of Planning for Young Leaders
• 38:46 Africa's Role on the Global Stage
• 41:32 The Future of Africa and Collective Responsibility
• 42:57 Lessons in Leadership
• 46:29 Staying True to Oneself
• 49:08 Rituals for Grounding and Reflection
• 51:03 Outro

Transcript

0:02

Welcome to Overnight Wisdom, a show where we sit with changemakers, artists, business leaders, and thinkers. Each conversation is an invitation to slow down, to go deeper, and unearth the quiet insights that shape who we are. If you're seeking honest reflections, unexpected wisdom, and a deeper understanding of what it takes to not merely survive, but to thrive. You're in the right place. What does it take to lead when leadership comes at a cost? Today's guest, Jameson Timba, joins us to talk democracy, clarity, and the courage to keep showing up no matter the odds. Jameson is a Zimbabwean politician, strategist, and relentless advocate for democracy. From the front lines of policy to the hearts of opposition, Jameson has dedicated his life to fighting for a freer, fairer Zimbabwe. He has long stood at the intersection of policy and principle. He has not only written legislation, but has also lived its consequences, most recently spending over five months in detention for daring to gather and remember the lives of Africa's children. And yet, through it all, His voice has not wavered. In fact, it has only grown clearer. This is an episode for anyone navigating resistance, building in fragile contexts, or needing to remember that purpose often works hand in hand with sacrifice. Today, we speak with someone who doesn't just talk about freedom. He risks for it. He lives it. Let's get into it. Hi, Jameson. Really good to see you. This is first time we're speaking officially face to face and over voice. I've read a lot about you and I'm really looking forward to this conversation. So I'm going to jump right into things. How did you get into politics? Well, I think that it was a natural progression of my life. Activism has always been part of me, even from the time I was in high school through to university. I did not get into active politics immediately after university because of priorities that I had set myself, but it's something that I knew eventually I'll slide into. I see, very interesting. from everything I've read about you, there's seemingly a need to fight to create better systems, sometimes even in the face of great odds. So my question for you is, what compels you to keep fighting for the values that you hold, even when systems seem immovable. First of all, I've got a very strong belief that nothing is immovable, that change is inevitable. It might be resisted, but eventually it will prevail. So even if... em the stakes are high or end of the odds are high, I still have a very strong belief that we'll prevail. I guess a lot of your work and your activism to many degrees has been shaped within the political sphere of Zimbabwe and perhaps the continent of Africa. How would you say, and part of that work requires you speaking up. So how would you say that politics has shaped or maybe even fractured your relationship with silence or the lack thereof. I've never been the type of person who would remain silent, even at home, when things are not right. I think I probably was involved in some confrontation of one form or the other, albeit respectable, with my dad or with my mum, on issues that I had very strong views on. and those strong feelings about. So I've never been a person who shies away from speaking out what I think because I do try to think through things and to get conviction on those things that I believe in. And once I'm convinced myself that, listen, this is the right thing to do, I'll do it. I think that that is a connecting thread in a lot of your work and your career. But I do want to ask around, why are you building? Who are you building for? From a perspective of the vision that you were trying to create for the future, who are you creating it for or whose view are you trying to resist? As of now, I can safely say to you that I'm trying to create a different future for my grandchildren. I had a different future myself. And sometimes when I speak to young people, I feel for them things that, the things that I was able to do when I was 23, 25, 27, 30 years of age, which they can't do, particularly in Zimbabwe. They can't get a mortgage. They can't get lease finance to get access to buy brand new vehicle. They can't do those basic things of life, things that young people aspire to do and do have at a certain age after going through school and so forth. Those things have been taken away from them. You read all generation or two, basically whose future has been stolen. by our current government and these terrible policies. Hmm. On government and perhaps governance, I want to talk quickly about media freedom and your role in democratic development. You did play quite a significant role in establishing an independent media commission that led to the registration of this independent daily newspaper. ah in a previously state-dominated landscape. So my first question on this for you is, why was that separation of states and societal institutions, why was that important to you? You see, I believe that government is good when it governs less. I believe that people must be given freedom to flourish within a given set of regulations and rules within a given society. But what the government cannot do is to license people to speak. or let alone to license people to think. By muzzling the media, the government is effectively muzzling people's views, and making it extremely difficult for them to express themselves. So the issue of media freedom for me is fundamental to any of the freedoms that a given society should have. I should have. I'm still not satisfied with the level of what I would call media polarity, for instance, in the case of Zimbabwe. You can't say 45 after independence, you still have one terrestrial television. That is totally unacceptable. If you look before 1980, were probably one of two countries which had a television. station in Africa, south of the Sahara, that is our south in Nigeria. But since then, uh after decolonization, if you go to most of these African countries, you see that there is significant media plurality, which we don't have in Zimbabwe. And that must change. Hmm. What does it take to change it? What would it take? it takes is... My first approach was to engage the current government. to make them understand the importance of these. But I'm convinced that that is not going to work. What would actually work is to change the government so that you have a new set of leaders with a new mindset. Our government is currently manned by persons who I believe their mindsets were structured for something else. They were soldiers. Okay? And they're thinking that they're not wired to govern and or manage a modern state. They do not have an understanding of our modern state functions. So, so, they must go. Hmm. Thanks for sharing. So I want to lean in on that, right? ah There was a time you were a government insider, and now I think a lot of us would say to some degree, an opposition leader. So having served within the government, say as a minister of states, and now leading the opposition faction of the Citizens Coalition for Change. How has your perspective on Zimbabwe's political system evolved and what insights have you gained about effecting change from within versus from outside the establishment? I think let me start by saying that my participation in government in those years, I had one key lesson. And that lesson is I learned how not to govern by interacting with the other half of that government of Zanu-PF. I learned a lot from them, but I learned a lot about how not to govern because of the way in which they approach the issues of... of governance. My perspective has not changed in terms of how I view our governance culture. ah I do not think that Zanu-PF is wired for governance. We are thankful to them for all that they played before 1980. But we should kiss each other goodbye and say thank you. and then we move on. They are caught in what I would call a war psychosis. They are caught in a time warp. So, and they need help. The only help that you can give them is to vote them out of power and show them how a modern state should be governed. We are actually extremely rich as a country, but badly governed. Where do you think the consciousness of the people today in Zimbabwe is at in terms of can they vote? Does it matter? Does it change government? Let me acknowledge the fact that people have been frustrated a lot in the past elections. In cases where effectively I'm aware that the opposition has won elections, but it is not one power. I'm very conscious of that fact. But I'm also a strong believer in democracy. That we should never give up on democracy. And that democracy works at the end of the day. Democracy. will work and I want to continue to to urge the people of Zimbabwe to have faith in democracy. We do not have an option to democracy and I think eventually because any other way of changing the government will introduce a culture and a precedent in your body politic that you do not want. Okay I can give you the example of how governments have changed in West Africa for instance, where you now have a culture of coups and so forth. You don't want that. You would rather, you know, soldier on faith in democracy and know that not to walk, but know that one day democracy will deliver. Right. Do you think it's easier to change the systems from within or from outside? Or do we need both? In the case of Zimbabwe, we actually need to de-zanufy our country. We need a total de-zanufication of Zimbabwe. So I am not of the view that you can go inside and say, can better off, are in a better situation to change the system from within. For me, it doesn't matter where you are, from within or without, it's the end game which matters. The end game is a total de-zanufication of oh this marbling body politic. What do mean by de-zanufication? De- zanufication is to remove, total removal of the culture of governance introduced by Zanu-PF since 1980. Okay. I see. Okay. So I want to ask you a bit around how you navigate political repression, right? Following your arrests and detention for participating in what was deemed an unlawful gathering by the government. How do you interpret the current state of civil liberties in Zimbabwe? I would say that to a very large extent, the politics in our country has been criminalized. It has been criminalized out of fear, because our current government is afraid of people. It is also afraid of those people who differ with them. I would like to encourage them to say they've got nothing to fear, except fear itself. Hmm. I would like to encourage them, including Mr. Nangagwa and his colleagues, that they must come and engage me. They must differ with me. Let's have a contestation of ideas about who between us has got the best ideas to take Zimbabwe forward. They are not my enemies. They are my political opponents, but they consider me their enemy, which is wrong. And I need to get them out of that mindset. And they need education to understand that having views which are different, the next person does not make that person an enemy. That is correct. That is true. So on your vision for Zimbabwe's future then, what is your vision for the political and social economic future? What would you like it to look like? My vision for Zimbabwe is very simple. Our vision, which I believe can be a shared vision across the political aisle, is anchored on three pillars. Freedom. prosperity and happiness. I need to find a Zimbabwean it does not matter their political affiliation who would be opposed to these three things. Are you opposed to freedom? Are you opposed to prosperity? Are you opposed to happiness? We need to create a society that prides itself for not leaving anyone behind in their pursuit. of these three things, freedom, prosperity and happiness. Then we are good to go. Let's go and fight as to who has got the best route or the best method of getting us there better and faster. That's all. Hmm. So if I can lean in on that, you talk about freedom, prosperity and happiness. And I think these are contextual things, right? They can shift from one person to the next in their understanding of what that means. So if we can, if you can speak more tangibly to for this current systemic issues that hinders happiness, freedom and prosperity, what role should citizens play in shaping this trajectory and tangibly what can they do or what needs to change. I think we should start with our mindset. The first thing is that we need as a people to have a culture of constitutionalism. Zimbabwe has got a comprehensive bill of rights, enshrined in our constitution. Probably second or comparable to the bill of rights of the Republic of South Africa in Africa, South of the Sahara. Very comprehensive. But what is not there in our body politic is the culture of constitutionalism, the culture of respecting those. Constitution abiding by it. So that should be our starting point. And that should apply to every one of us. But if it is a policeman, a state agent, or a citizen, we must relate in the same way to our constitution, to our bill of rights. A policeman must understand that even that person whom they tend to arrest, that person has their own dignity. That must be respected A prisoner of summons also understand that when that person is handed over to them, what that person has lost is their freedom because of detention. But they still maintain their human dignity and that dignity must be given. It must not be interfered with. So it is a question of us changing our mindset, all of us, myself included. in those state agencies included to say this is what that makes who we are as Zimbabwe. This is our Ubuntu There should not be an argument over that. Hmm. As to then, how do you interpret prosperity? Yes, it becomes relative. Okay? What the state needs to do is to just to ensure that everyone has got the same opportunities, which means you've got equal opportunities. How you then utilize those opportunities as individual can then differ from one individual to the other. But what should never be the case is the fact that I have denied you an opportunity because you have a political view which is different from mine. Or I have denied you an opportunity because you've got a religious belief. which is different from mine. Those are the things that we need to remove. So that in these matches we might differ with the perspective of prosperity, but let's all agree that we've got the same opportunity. Hmm. What you say reminds me a lot about equity, know, equity makes or ensures that we get equal opportunities. But of course it doesn't necessarily mean that we have equal outcome because it's up to the individual to do with it what they will. Yes, precisely. And the role of the state is just to make sure that it's fair game for everybody. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. So I do want to lean in a bit or perhaps zone out a bit from your political career and just lean into how that merges with you as a person. How do you protect, I mean yourself while remaining radically visible in the face of surveillance, the face of scrutiny and also arrest? And we're Christian. Okay. eh And ultimately I'm protected by God, not man. So I fear no man. created by God. I fear them not. So at the end of the day, I have faith. that the creator who brought me here. only who is going to take me away from here. Hmm. I appreciate that. can live with that. what does it mean to be for somebody in your position? You know, there are people who celebrate you. There are people who criminalize you. There are people who disagree with you and having that visible public figure. How do you navigate that, that celebration and say criminalization in the same breath? Well, I take the issue of the criminalization that it comes with the territory. em It's something that I would expect to happen, particularly if one is practicing politics under an authoritarian regime like the one that we have in Zimbabwe. One would expect that your work and yourself would be criminalized. So it doesn't bother me because it's something that I budgeted for psychologically. So I can live with that. As to those who appreciate what I'm doing, my encouragement to them is that let's work together. This is not my personal fight. This is our collective fight. In whatever way that you can make a contribution to that fight, wherever you are. Please do so, because at end of the day, uh it is for the common good. Great. Thanks for sharing. I'm thinking about how you navigate the different identities that you carry. You you shared about wanting a better future for your grandchildren. So how do you feel a sense of belonging both in Zimbabwe as a political figure, but also as an individual who also has a different life, so to say outside of the political role that you hold. What has helped you navigate a sense of belonging or perhaps survival? I know you've talked about God and how that is central to you, but just curious, how do you navigate the space between do I belong here? So maybe I can summarize these differently. Mm. Life, okay, is not like an ailment, which can be resolved either through the intervention of medication and end or through antibodies. So, so life cannot be resolved. Life can only be lived. You must live your life. Part of my life involves me having to fight. Okay? If I don't fight, I am no longer living my life. Because that's who I am. I am behaving as if I'm an ailment, which... I'm behaving as if life is an ailment when it is not. So I'm gonna have to live through my life, because life cannot be resolved. It can only be fought. It can only be lived. And if you are a fighter, your task is just to continue with your fight. because it's part of your living. Hmm. Okay. You've stood at the front lines of political reforms in Zimbabwe and perhaps that has come at great personal cost. So I guess what I want to ask you is, I mean, I know there's a cost to public resistance, but what is perhaps something you have never said out loud? about what this work has cost you. First of all, let me say that. I have always been conscious of the fact that it is a cost. And there is a price to be paid by somebody who does the things that I do. So it's not like something that will come as an accident to me or as a surprise, but it's something that is anticipated that there will be a cost. I have lost things. I have lost personal wealth. as a result of politics. I probably have lost relationships as a result of my work. But these are things that I psychologically prepared myself for and therefore I do not regret. any loss that could have been incurred in the process. I see. I'm just, I'm just marveling, I guess, at the psychological clarity you must have to, yes, this comes at a cost and this is what, you know, I expected and so it is. Hmm. That's interesting. Yeah. So I want to talk then a bit about courage because I think the courage to know that you will lose something and still do it anyway. So for example, personal wealth, right? what does courage look like to you? I'm thinking about people who might be listening to this, who might think, okay, how do I make a change? How do I make a difference? Especially within systems and structures where I feel so small. So I guess my question here is what does courage look like? for you right now. I think courage should for everybody and for everyone. look like em the difference between one's current situation. and what one aspires to be. That should be the color of courage. You should be able to then say to yourself, do I want to continue to be in this state when I can be in this different state? If your answer to that is no, don't want to continue to be in state. then it should give you the courage to take the next step to change that. Hmm. I want to lean in on that and perhaps talk about hope because the kind of courage you talk about also comes with an unrelenting hope perhaps. But I also want to lean in on the fact in the, say in the, in the months where you were not free. How did you retain hope? How? How? Let me start by saying that I do not believe that hope is a strategy. Okay? Because it's not. So. when I was incarcerated. First thing that I did was not to accept that incarceration. in my mind. because I knew that the people who... had arrested me. they were coming after my spirit. And I was not going to give it to them. At least on a silver plate. They're not going to get it. I then just treated prison as a changed arena of my struggle that I should continue to fight. That meant I also needed to deal with the injustices that I saw in our own prisons in Zimbabwe. And there are many. And during my incarceration, I was able to confront some of them and will continue to do so to ensure that some of the things that happened in our prisons must come to an end. I also say to myself that this is a changed arena for my struggle and that eventually I will get out of here. And I have come to put it to you in Shona. speaks in Shona So I knew a day would come that whatever I'm going through would come to pass. Okay. And When it does, I'll just continue. So this is a temporary inconvenience, a temporary detour That will go away. It's gone. Yes, I've got a suspended sentence hanging over my head. I can live with that. I don't have great difficulties and it's not going to hinder my work. Neither is it going to change my beliefs. It reminds me of uh the saying, this too shall pass. That no matter whatever situation you find yourself in, it's not the end, you know, it will pass. And listening to you talk also reminds me of something I learned a long time ago about the mind is one battleground that we can't lose, our mind. no matter what is happening around us, no matter the situation we find ourselves, political, economic, social, personal, that as long as we can hold on to our minds and our sense of self and our values, then it will be better in the end. And if it's not better, it's not the end, so to say. So, hmm. Precisely. That's the point. That should be the spirit. Okay. I like that. All right. So I have a question for you about you're somebody who has been in the public space for decades. You've created a lot of positive change. So I wanted to ask you though, is there something you've created, maybe an idea, a strategy, a story that no longer feels like it comes from you, given your evolution? I think the answer to that is no. uh I believe that just like everybody else, we all grow. The things that we do that we'll probably learn from. What is important is do we have any lessons that we have learned from that? And then we grow from that. um uh I cannot pinpoint on anything that I can dissociate myself from. No. like that growth mindset, right? So the idea that whatever you did up until now was the best that you could. it's the, I like that. I'm reminded of this quote, I forget by whom now. Is it Maya Angelou? the best you can until you know better and when you know better, do better. I also reminds me of that. Yeah. Okay. So you sound to me, just in talking to you and in seeing your work, it's very important to lead with clarity, like that clarity of thought, clarity of spirits. You also shared earlier that, you you spend quite a bit of time thinking about what you're doing and why you're doing it. And then when that becomes clear to you, you move. I think for a lot of younger people, I think in, for example, my generation, Perhaps it's difficult to find such clarity given the social, economic, and political unraveling not just in our different countries, but also the world at large. So what advice do you have for us? Listen, there is no substitute or rather there's no known substitute for planning. And that's what I want to advise young people. and I always use my self as an example. I made a 10 year plan. when I was leaving university. I said to myself, I want to work for government for between two to three years. Then I want to work for a non-governmental sector for about two to three years. Then after that, I want to go and work in the private sector. And by the time I am in my 10th year, or just before, I must have reached the helm of whatever I'm doing in the private sector. And then thereafter, I must walk away to go and start my own business. I did exactly that. Notwithstanding the fact that when I got to the 10th year, I didn't have money to start a business. But I had a good job. Well-paying job, everything. Good car, staying well. I didn't have any issues. I had no reason to leave. The only reason I had to leave is because 10 years before that, I had made a decision that I leave. So I took my and I had $150 in my pocket and I turned in my resignation. I was not fired. Then I gave up a well-paying job to go and start a business, but without money to do so. And I did it. I started the business. It grew. And it did the things that I wanted it to do for me. What I would say to young people is that you must have a belief in yourself, but you cannot operate without a plan. You must have an end game. And as a politician, I'm saying, I can't come to you and offer you a different Zimbabwe. If I cannot sell a vision to you and say, this is where we supposed to be. I am, I've been here for close to a week now. I'm attending an international conference of an association of progressive forces that support more than 100 countries represented here. It's a grouping of about 142 political parties worldwide in Africa, in Latin America, in Europe, et cetera. Whilst I was in prison, I was elected to be in the board of this organization, providing and to represent Africa in that board, providing leadership at a continental level. And only yesterday, we were making a presentation. And I said, Africa, let's make sure that we are on the global table. But as we sit it on the table Chisom, must make sure that we are not the menu. must sit there as an equal partner and make our contribution on global issues. That's where we should be. But we need to change our mindsets. Our young people, the things that we should have done ourselves that probably we have not - done. Why should we be having a continent with 52 small little countries when you can have one country? Massive resources which is able to challenge the United States of America, challenge Europe as a union because we have the capacity to do so. Right across in the DRC, on the Congo River, what is called the Inga Dam. If we go and invest on the INGA project, hydroelectricity, renewable energy, we can power the whole of Europe with INGA in the dears, as much as we can power the whole of Africa. But no, we are not doing that. We busy stealing from the future. in misapplying our resources That absolutely resonates. You know, I've been thinking, so I'm an economist and I work in, you know, uh across private, public sector, civil society. And I think 2025 has been an interesting year and I've been unraveling a bit about what it actually takes for Africa to step forward. In 2100, India, Nigeria, and China will be the most populated countries in the world in that order. And Africa has a very young population. will be, it is the next frontier. But in order to not be the menu, as you said, we need to act and that needs a plan and that resonates. you know, I'm unraveling as to what that means for me and the role I play in that process. But I think this is the conversation that those of us who are within the spaces, those of us who have a lot to lose if we don't step up, if Africa does not take its spot at the table. Yeah, I'm unraveling. I'm trying to think about what that looks like. So it's quite, it's refreshing to hear from you, but it's also, it's, it's, it's that constant reminder about there's work to be done and we all have a role to play in that process. Yes. And please step up and ask young people to step up, Some of us are getting tired. So I need to sit back now and watch you guys pick up the torch and take it forward. And we will always be there to advise. Absolutely. Thank you for that. Okay. I want to ask you about, um, just wisdom, right? Cause I feel like I've been getting a lot of wisdom from you in this call. Um, but I do want to ask you as someone who has been engaged in different forms of leadership, what has time taught you about what truly matters in leadership? mean, there are different types of leaders, there are different ways to lead, but what is the most important thing you have learned about leadership? Okay, oh the first lesson that I learned about leadership, I probably learned it from my father and then subsequently experienced it. But for you to lead, first of all, you must know how to be led. You must know how to be led. What does it mean knowing how to be led? You must feel what the person that you are leading today is feeling first. So you must understand that when you do certain things, this is how they are going to impact on a person or on persons. But you can only do that if you yourself they've been led or they've accepted to be led before. So you know how it feels. I was speaking to one of my siblings, he's a Chartered accountant, says, you know, when we went for training, doing our articles, and what it said during meetings, the seniors would just say, we want to start a meeting now, please can you go and get us some... drinks outside. And then I'm taken out at the time at which I'm supposed to be listening to say, okay, we're getting to this stuff. Then, you know, when you go to go and do audits at given companies, I'm given the most menial tasks to say, no, go and organize those files, make sure that all those receipts are filed before we come and check them. Then you were saying to me, was so irritating. Okay. These guys are not just sitting to me to go and buy food. They're making me do, they're not giving me the real stuff. And then I said, no. They're teaching you discipline. Hmm. You needed to know and understand that those things need to be done and somebody has to do them. They were teaching you how to be led and testing you to see whether you can be led. So that tomorrow when you lead able to understand how the next person feels. But leadership um is a huge challenge. People take leadership as if it is a privilege. No, it's not a privilege, it's a responsibility. Yes. because you're taking responsibility for others. You're making decisions that will impact on other people. And you must understand it all material time that as you make a decision, there are various stakeholders who will be impacted by that decision. And you must be able to make an analysis to say, yes, how is this going to impact on stakeholder P, A, C, D, and E. Hmm. A leader has got probably more responsibility than those who are led. It's a challenge that must be taken with humility. Absolutely. Thanks for sharing. If your younger self could see you now. What would make him proud? And what would probably leave him in awe? Well, I think if I were myself, my younger self would look at Jameson and say, okay Jameson, never change. Okay. em You are still the same stubborn person that knew You are still the same person that never accepted eh position number two. because I don't want to accept that. So I think that my younger self will not be extremely disappointed, probably once more, but you still say, eh you're still the same old chap. Some call you stubborn. Others call you arrogant. you call yourself confident. So it's just a different perspective. Hmm. Hmm. I love that for you. Sounds great. mean, sounds. Yeah. a final I - question perhaps I have for you here is what keeps you rooted? I mean, you move through different spaces, you travel to different countries. What is a ritual or practice that keeps you rooted to yourself? Well, em I do exercise. That's good. Nice. I used to run, but now at least I walk four kilometers every morning. I use that time to reflect, think through things. I also enjoy gardening a lot and I love gardening. m And when I'm really stressed, I go into the garden. m it helps me manage my emotions, manage my challenges, and also it helps me think through things. Hmm. That keeps me going. But more than anything else. I have a courage of my convictions. I have a belief in those things that I'm fighting for. And I have a conviction that... they will be achieved. So that belief that we will get there keeps me going. Is there a question that I should have asked you today that I did not? If you didn't ask me anything that you should have asked, it is your loss, it's not mine. Hahaha I love that. Okay. It was good to end this with a laugh, but I do want to say thank you so much for having this chat. This has been nourishing. I think walking into this, I wasn't quite sure what to expect beyond what I had read about you and communicated with you through WhatsApp, but I am incredibly grateful for your time, for your wisdom. And I think as somebody I'm Nigerian and as somebody who has a very love hate relationship with how our countries is across the continent are led. There's also something quite inspiring and encouraging to talk to leaders like you who have that clarity and that conviction to. what it takes to bridge the gaps that we have in Africa socially, economically, politically, and even personally. So I'm grateful for your time. I'm grateful for your wisdom. Thank you so very much. This has been nourishing - No, thank you for having me on your show. And just please continue encouraging other young people to make their contribution. We'll get there. Yes, we will. Thank you so much. Thank you for spending time with us on Overnight Wisdom. If this conversation moved you, inspired you, or made you pause, please like, leave a comment, or share it with someone who needs to hear it. You can follow the show wherever you get your podcasts, and if you're feeling generous, a rating, or review, goes a long way in helping others find us too. Until next time, stay curious, stay tender, and may the wisdom you need find you exactly when you're ready.