Redrawing Medicine - Healing, Humanity and Representation with Chidiebere Ibe

Today’s guest is Chidiebere Ibe,  medical student, trailblazing medical illustrator, and a global voice for representation in healthcare. His work is deeply intentional,  illustrating not just anatomy, but humanity. You may know him from his now iconic image of a Black fetus that rippled across the world, awakening a much-needed reckoning in medical education and beyond. But what you may not know is the story behind the art,  a story of grief, faith, unshakable purpose, and a refusal to wait for permission. In this episode, we speak about the intersection of medicine, art, and social justice, and what it means to draw the unseen with spiritual conviction. This is Chidiebere Ibe.

Follow him on
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chidiebere-ibe-206ab81a9/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ebereillustrate/

Order his Book
https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Skin-Representation-Matters-Medicine/dp/B0C12D785N
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Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Background
03:02 The Journey to Medical Illustration
08:20 Belief, Grief, and Purpose
15:02 The Impact of Representation in Medicine
22:42 Creating Emotional Connections through Art
27:00 Going Viral: The Black Fetus Illustration and Its Impact
32:27 The Importance of Representation in Art
34:47 Navigating Resistance to Change
37:22 The Role of Community in Advocacy
39:00 The Poetics of Illustration
42:43 Cultural Identity and Artistic Expression
46:37 Art as a Healing Medium
51:12 Legacy and Impact in Art and Medicine
59:32 Outro

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Background
• 3:02 The Journey to Medical Illustration
• 8:20 Belief, Grief, and Purpose
• 15:02 The Impact of Representation in Medicine
• 22:42 Creating Emotional Connections through Art
• 27:00 Going Viral: The Black Fetus Illustration and Its Impact
• 32:27 The Importance of Representation in Art
• 34:47 Navigating Resistance to Change
• 37:22 The Role of Community in Advocacy
• 39:00 The Poetics of Illustration
• 42:43 Cultural Identity and Artistic Expression
• 46:37 Art as a Healing Medium
• 51:12 Legacy and Impact in Art and Medicine
• 59:32 Outro

Transcript

0:00

Welcome to Overnight Wisdom, a show where we sit with changemakers, artists, business leaders, and thinkers. Each conversation is an invitation to slow down, to go deeper, and unearth the quiet insights that shape who we are. If you're seeking honest reflections, unexpected wisdom, and a deeper understanding of what it takes to not merely survive, but to thrive. You're in the right place. Today's guest is Chidiebere Ibe, medical student, trailblazing illustrator, and a global voice for representation in healthcare. His work is deeply intentional, illustrating not just anatomy, but humanity. You may know him from his now iconic image of a black fetus that rippled across the world, awakening a much needed reckoning in medical education and beyond. But what you may not know is the story behind the arts, a story of grief, faith, unshakable purpose, and a refusal to wait for permission. In this episode, we speak about the intersection of medicine, art, and social justice, and what it means to draw the unseen with spiritual conviction. This is Chidiebere Ibe. Hi, Chidiebere. Welcome. It's good to have you here. Thanks for being with me. So I first learned, about your work through LinkedIn. I think... So many people in countries across the world kind of resonated with the work and your illustration, especially on the black body. And I have since followed what I could off your work and also lifted your work in spaces where I hold, in spaces I engage. Oftentimes, when people are like, what are Africans doing? I'm like, let me tell you about that person and that person and Chidiebere Ibe also. Happens to be one of those people I often lift the work that they do. And when I thought about finally putting this podcast into the world, it only made sense that you were on it. So thank you for graciously accepting to being here and thanks for chatting with me today. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Thank you. A pleasure being on the podcast. Look forward to having a good conversation with you. Yeah, likewise. So I'm going to jump right in, right? Like I like deep questions, you know, I'm not the way that is great. That's wonderful. So we're just going to jump right into things. And I want to start by looking at, you know, kind of your origins and inner compass and maybe just looking at the anatomy of purpose. You know, um when we spoke a little while ago, you you shared that you didn't really have any type of formal training. But you've always had, you know, this really strong conviction. And at least from my lens, like what I see is that you have a strong calling to make medical illustrations more inclusive. So I guess what I want to start with as an opening question is what was the inner rupture or the thing that you knew that led you to pick up. Digital pen and was there a moment where you realized if I don't do this who will? Yeah, thank you for the question. I that was, I take it a step back, that was in 2020, during the lockdown, I felt that that was the defining moment of my life because during the COVID, I was engaged in so many activities, you know, with different... organizations and people and networks. Then I was also a graphic designer. I had so many skills, so many creative prowesses that I needed to just put forth. Then while was going through Facebook, I saw this organization called AFAN, So I reached out to them and said, can I create designs for you? You know, while you pay me, because I was also looking for a sort of income. So, and they were like, we don't have money to pay you Then I quickly volunteered to work pro bono. So it wasn't that moment that I met my mentor, Dr. Oric Sippy. Then I was also drawing. You know, with pencil and pen So then he, there was a moment he said to me, you know, why not go into medical illustrations, because I see you have an interest for art, you have an interest for medicine. Why not, interject both, why not just bring both together And for me, have never thought about such speciality before. So I was like, OK, maybe something I could try. So I picked up an anatomy textbook, which I got from my friend of mine. And while going through the textbook, I realized this is something I can't do because one, I was not in medical school. I didn't know anything about anatomy. I didn't know how to digitally draw. So it was a whole complex thing that I'd have no specialty in So, but I think the re-defining. Moment when I said, okay, regardless, I'm still going to do this if I'm good at it or not. And then I didn't have a laptop. I, back then I was working in the media unit in my church. So we had access to the media unit and they had laptops there. So I used to go to church literally every day to, you know, start learning illustration. Then I used to use computer mouse, and Photoshop to learn So. In that process, realized that, while learning illustrations, I lost track of time. I could spend like five hours, six hours doing one illustration. And I was like, okay, maybe I have a thing for this. So in that moment, I realized that, so this was a subject that I could, find my rooting in. So I started creating illustrations with no particular interest to really make them diverse because for me, first of all, was learning. I needed to know how this image is created. So while learning all of that, I realized that there was something missing. Most images were all white centered. And I didn't have access to good references where I rely on references to, something to look at and so I'm creating something similar to this. There was none. It was a difficult process. But then I kept showing up, which was most important thing on my journey. I kept showing up regardless of if I doing it right or not, And so I kept putting out the artwork. And the amazing thing was that I wasn't waiting for perfection to share my artwork with the world, So at my learning stage, I was always sharing with sharing with social media, you know, having one likes, which was my family members, you know, it was a learning curve. So I realized that in that process was I knew that I was doing something great. You know, I may not see the reactions and everything, but I realized something good. And then at that same period, I did an artwork in church. Oh We had like a service where if you are creative, just come out and show your gift and all of that. So I did a painting of Jesus upside down, in about five minutes, And I think that was the moment I realized, oh, okay, I'm really an artist. That kind of like, it's kind of blew up. I had people coming out to give me scholarships and everything. I realized, okay. I mean, this is interesting. So I had to bring that ability into medical institutions. And identifying that problem was in the moment I just kept doing it. So I realized, okay, this is something I want to do to ensure that people are represented. I don't want to say I'm an emotional person. Maybe I can't, I can just say that anyway. But I think I have a touch with humanity, I allow myself to feel human and that kind of reflects in my artworks. You know, when I'm creating an illustration, I try to think about how does the patient feel when they have the particular disease or condition? So for me, I try to communicate, not just the medical perspective, but to ensure that, you know, there is a of humanity. So Thanks for sharing. It's really great to hear the story. I'm wondering... So when did it become apparent for you that you had to like throw yourself into this? Or did that just sort of happen? Was there a moment where you were like, yep, this is part of what I'm meant to do. Well, well, uh... I wouldn't necessarily say that there was a time where I, oh, this is what I'm meant to do, For me, it was sort of like me trying to find a sense of meaning, you know, because back then I wanted to go into medical school. I had tied everything, purpose and meaning to medical school. I felt like without medical school, without being a doctor, my life is worthless. So everything I did was to the ultimate, you know, finding meaning in life. Not because I wanted the fame or notoriety - no, that wasn't part of the goal, so it was just a way of saying, while waiting for your big deal, which is medical school, why not just spend some time doing all of this, to help you become a better doctor at the very end. Little did I that I was crafting a path myself that I didn't realize. I think there was a time I created an artwork of the brain and I had about, an unusual reaction on social media, which is. Not compared to what I usually have often. I was like, oh, what happened to this image? It was just, I think about maybe 30 likes as at then which was a huge number for me Then I had a referral from someone to, come volunteer for a journal to create design. So I realized, okay, I'm getting a bit of, recognition So I think pretty much that's how, that's the reason why I just kept doing it. Not because I had this eureka moment - to realize, yeah, this is what I'm to be in life You know, it was just me trying to, you know, find meaning in life and here I am, Here you are doing great work. So I'm also reflecting on what you said in the beginning around, you know, I think about the importance of mentorship, and I think about how mentors can sometimes either ask a question or make a statement that makes us expand in how we think of ourselves and the work that we do. And no one becomes an expert on anything on day one. You know, so you talked about showing up and doing it anyway and like failing forward and almost like learning in public. Think there's something quite remarkable in that process in that you're not waiting for this to be perfect. Whatever the idea of perfection is. But you're leaning forward anyway and willing to take that risk. The feedback, both positive and negative and constructive, or just the combination of all of it. And I think there's a lot of bravery in that. So it's inspiring to hear that and that resonates a lot. Also, you talked quite openly about your faith. You've mentioned church a few times, so I know faith is a thing for you. And when we've spoken in the past, you've also talked openly about how personal loss in some sense shaped your path to some degree. So I want to ask you, in what ways do you think that grief and belief in yourself, in the work and the purpose that you have in the world right now, in what ways do you think they coexist in your becoming because it's an ongoing process, not just as an illustrator, but also as somebody who is shaping how Black bodies are seen and studied and valued. I think that the most important thing about growth first of all, is your belief system, and why I say that is because I didn't come from an environment that was all very supportive. And by that I mean, my journey to becoming, where I am right now, I mean, in my journey to this, I realized that I was navigating life alone, literally, for example, When I uh tried medical school for seven times, know, Nigerian system, could tell how it sometimes crazy to get into medical school. And my family was like, you're joining to medical school, you are all alone. We're not going to sponsor you to the school. You have to work and find your way around medical school. They were like, you should just leave this. And go into - tech just leave medicine, But for me, I realised that this was what I was called to do. Then I think I had to be my greatest supporter. Had to be my greatest belief system to understand that, okay, if my family doesn't believe in what I want to do, then I think nobody else is gonna believe other than myself. So belief for me is very integral, And I believe that it's a big word because it encompasses how I see myself and how God sees me, which I always talk about God everywhere, because it was a lot of work to sit down, to study, you know, to. To become a better person. And I feel like that started from, seeing myself and where I came from and to where I wanted to go to. You know, that was when it took up part of my journey, redefining my thinking pattern. And for me, grief has also played a big, big role in my success, in my journey in life. Because when I lost my mom to ovarian - cancer, on the 25th December on a Christmas. It was a very sad experience in my life. And I mean, when all of that happened, the days where, know, she was soaked in the pool of blood and I had to go wash out the clothes. And while doing that, was telling myself that I'm gonna be a doctor, not just because of this, but because of every other person out there who are having similar experiences So for me, my life has been centered around belief and grief. And ensuring that this has been a big driving force for me ensuring - that people, have a better quality of life. So sometimes I wonder, what I live for. I realized that I live for people basically. I know I don't know how that sounds, but it's just how my life has been basically, what I do know is that I want to be a person of value. I want to ensure that people are okay around me. And that was the most important thing I said, And now I've seen the blessings of God, and I think that's what has shaped my mindset, to be growing to where I am right now. And to doing something that's not really been done in the healthcare space, and challenging the norm. And the most difficult thing is being a young person, being a Nigerian, doing something that's not really common. It's kind of like bring a lot of backlashes from people, I would say that my belief system plays a pivotal role in my success and also maintaining the success. That I have right now. Thanks for sharing. So many, there's a lot I can get from that in terms of, when you say you're a people person, like you live for people and you're creating value through that, I think absolutely. Think where you've been able to showcase through your work and especially by centering the bodies and the images of people who are often erased and ignored. I think that has caused a ripple. I remember having conversations around COVID, the pandemic, when one of your images kind of blew up and talking to someone in Norway who was starting to become a doctor and who is still studying to become a doctor. And he kind of reflected on the fact that in all of his, you know, practice and practicals or whatever it is they do in labs, he'd never seen a black or brown body. Essentially, like not the dummy, not an illustration, nothing. And I think that highlights just the importance of your work and why, you know, it evoked the type of emotions from people that it did. And I can tell you that for myself as a mom, I have two kids. Know, everything I ever saw about a pregnant woman did not represent me. It wasn't my body. It wasn't my skin. It wasn't me. And it's hard going through such a life-changing experience and not been represented in that experience, in the resources that you receive from the doctors, from the midwives. Yeah, so I think your work creates value and I think there's also something you say about being called. And I really love that you say being called because the thing about vision is like no one else needs to see that vision. I mean, it's great when they do and when they champion it and celebrate it, but ultimately you need to have that belief in yourself. You need to have that conviction. It's great to have support, but even when people don't see it, that you're able to move and Chidebere move you did, right? Because the impact you had literally the world over is remarkable. And just so many people, myself included, that are extremely thankful. For the work that you do and the representation that you create. And I do want to actually talk a bit about drawing the unseen, right? Because oftentimes medical illustration is seen as clinical. It's quite exact. But your work, because you're a religious person and we're Nigerian, so the spirits moves, you know, like... Your work moves with a spiritual intention, you know, like when you draw be it a fetus as a heart, a spine, what emotional truths are you actually trying to restore in anatomy? Yes, I think that's a very powerful question because you see, sometimes people ask me this question, what is different with your art? What is unique about your art? And it's safe to say I'm not the best illustrator in the world. But I do know that there is a unique thing about my art-is that there is there is a soul behind my art. And what that means is this, um before I create every illustration show and every piece of art, I do pray, I think about this in this way. How many patients are going through this? Because behind every statistics, for example, now I think in the US, black mothers are three to four times likely to die from birth complications than white women. So behind all those statistics, where in every one minute, a woman in LMIC died from cervical cancer. So all of those statistics are basically patient stories, are people who have real life experiences. So behind every data is a patient story. So when I'm creating every piece of art, I try to ensure that I'm not just statistically proving something or anatomically proving something, but I'm also emotionally proving something that these are real life cases of people who have gone through the experiences. Like for example, Tourette's syndrome, right? It's a syndrome where, you know, maybe the patient has tics, and There were times people were saying things like, Tourette's syndrome is a syndrome that is a white person syndrome. You know, it doesn't affect black people. But I was going through TikTok, I saw a lot of black people who were, making advocacy. We're talking about cases where they all regarded their syndromes as just a white person syndrome. So then I realized that, if I create an illustration about Tourette's syndrome, I don't just want to create the normal thing they see every time. I want to make sure that when a patient who feels unseen sees my illustration, they will feel seen. And that is why, for me, the most important part of my artwork starts with the thinking process. For example, now when I'm maybe I'm walking, I'm washing, I'm doing something, I'm thinking about what I want to create next. I'm thinking about the motif behind it. I'm thinking about the story behind it. So the greater part of my artwork start to the thinking process around it. And I would say that in the process of creating an artwork, would say I also consider cultural sensitivity. For example, one of the artwork I've created was, on, heat rash if I'm not mistaken. I had to ensure that where, babies were given travel marks So I had to integrate that a bit in that as well, you know, to communicate some sort of, cultural sensitivity. And also when I'm creating artwork around women in healthcare, I ensure to put - stretch marks sometimes, you know, because I try to normalize those things, And I think that has really been the foundation to, create advocacy to educate people around these conditions. And it also saddens my heart to realize that if we are training medical students to be better doctors, to better diagnose diseases, yet the material, the resources, the dummy, the models, training do not represent them. I mean, it's kind of create that communication gap between the. Doctor and the patient because of course medical students will in turn become doctors so we need to be able to train them with resources that look like them. I mean for me that that is training in Africa right our patients are predominantly black people but it's intriguing that all our material our skin conditions we were studying it just looked like just this what looks like on on white people. I mean, it's really sad and I'm working towards changing that. It's a long process. It's a deep process, convincing the faculty that, that there's something wrong. I think that's most difficult thing in medicine right now. So ultimately, if we are looking towards improving health care outcomes for everyone, I believe education is pivotal for that. And not just education, but diversifying education is important for health care outcomes, which comes to how the resources are used in training medical students, the hands-on experience they have access to. Those models, they look like their own community. So I think that's really important in the concept of diversity I think it's beautiful how you depict the human body as it should be, as it is. It is true that a lot of us, even before babies, we have stretch marks. I think it's gorgeous that you think about including... birthmarks and tribal marks on like the people that you illustrate. I think it's something quite authentic and unique in that kind of illustration. And as you were speaking, what was also coming up for me was, you know, having two kids in the West and being so terrified Yes, we have statistics from the US in terms of the chance or the reality that Black women are four times more likely to die in childbirth than a white woman. We also have a similar stats in the UK. But even in Nordics and I'm based in Norway, the outcome for Black women, say Somali women, are significantly worse than say for white women or for white women who have European ancestry. Like childbirth or just being pregnant and all of that should be one of the happiest times in our lives. But I remember going into hospital just terrified, you know, just like, I don't want to become a statistics. I don't want to die here. You know, I want to see this kid. And I reflect on that from time to time. And sometimes I feel like I still have some trauma about it that I'm still processing. But my very first experience was so awful. You know, it was so bad, but I think there's also something that fed into that way. I never really saw anybody like myself in the messaging I got in the prep I got going to hospital and hearing from, you know, very kind midwives, because I mostly had a midwife throughout my process. But when I came out of my first birth and survived that and started reflecting on, my gosh, I don't want to do this again. Not like this. I think that your work, and I would say this to you now, because it's true, was also quite important for me to even envision what my youngest, my son, would look like. I had him in 2023. And he felt, there was a release that I felt in like, oh my God, you know? And I did not know I needed that release. It just felt good to be seen and to be depicted, you know, and I could imagine myself and that child inside me with my skin rather than a foreign image. So I guess what I'm trying to say here is I think the work you do in this regard is so important and you don't... I'm sure the best illustrator in the world is the best illustrator. I don't know what the best illustrator is supposed to do. What you do speaks volumes. It's amazing. Ah so thank you for your work. This kind of like this resonated for me. So thank you for the work that you do in that regard. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. If we talk about the image that sparked joy and tears for me, right? The Black Fetus. It also sparked global recognition and attention from a lot of people. What did that moment teach you about medicine, about erasure, and about the fragility of dominant narratives? And I just want to layer this by saying... As a Nigerian, you come from a country where you are the majority. As a Nigerian, we're the majority of the majority. And things about diversity, I mean, we have our own challenges, ethnicity, of that nonsense, but we are the norm, right? And then you create work that has been so impactful outside of Nigeria and outside of the continent and also within. What was that recognizing like, whoa, what is medicine doing? How is it erasing an entire massive group of people in the world? I think when the image went viral, I think it was one of the strangest moments of my life, Because I didn't know what it feels like to be viral, That moment where social media is blowing up, emails are coming it was a whole lot of attention. For me, I'm not really a public person, you know? I mean, I've become that person because of the notoriety and because of the fame, So for me, it was just an image that I created, with no hopes of it going viral. But then I had to, go to the medical community to understand what is the depth to this image? What is the reason? Why does this image speak volumes? Then I started going through the comment section, the reactions. The intriguing thing was that I had physicians who've been practicing for like 50 years and they said for 50 years in my practice, I'm a doctor, I have never seen an image of such. It was, mean, was shocked because I thought this should be like a normal thing in medicine, people should know these things. I had people who were just literally calling me to tear up and say they feel seen, they feel valued now. Then I realized it was a transforming moment for medicine. And why I say that is because medicine is an evolving space, right? There is no end to what we can know And why that is because that season was that people started asking me things like, a fetus is never black in the uterus. A fetus is only black when they come out of the uterus. And I started doubting my creativity. Did I miss something? Is it wrong? But then I had to go through a series. I had to do a series called Some Babies Are Born Black. It was a series of education to teach people that, OK, medicine is evolving. People thought that, we don't need black illustrations, but through that they started understanding that we need this, it's fact or in health care now. Then I said, no, fetuses can be born black. Not everything is white. So I had to start that series, I had to go into deep research and realize that at the 14 week of gestation, the melanin, migrate to the skin. So yes, a fetus can be born black. So because you haven't seen it before, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. So it was a whole re-defining movement with medicine. People were saying things like, oh, okay, we love your art, but this is wrong. We love your art, but this is wrong. That moment they started saying, oh yeah, it is true. You know, not everything is white. It was a transforming moment in the space of medicine. And being the fact that I'm a Nigerian, Doing that was also a big factor. Something intriguing happened that period because then I was also crowdfunding to go to school, because I wanted to go to Ukraine for medical school. So luckily, which usually I don't know why I did that, I had to put my GoFundMe link on that particular post for the Black fetus hoping that people are just going to see it and donate to my cause. People were saying to yes, he's a Nigerian. You know, of course, they always involve money with everything. Know, was, was, oh God, was, was, yeah, was crazy. You know, I was like, I didn't know he was going to go viral. That means he already made a go fund me link to get money from people. It is kind of difficult because of the notion they have about, being a Nigerian. And not just that, being a young person also, you know, I kind of got a lot of reactions from my fellow arts community where, you know, they're like, oh, he's a young person. We've been doing it for more like 30 years. The world should be celebrating, us not him, So it was a moment of gratitude and a moment of also thinking, no matter what you do, people don't like you. But it was exciting to see that I was doing something that transcends myself, something that not just, spoke to the black community, but also to the white community. They also saw that, oh, we've been seeing this wrong. You know, let's also see how to integrate other communities of people, So, it's all of that gave me a feeling of, oh gratitude. I had to just understand that, you know, it was, a big, big thing for me. And I think that was the moment where I had a lot of mothers reach out to me and said, can I, how can I support your work? I want to give you images of my daughter who had this condition, just illustrate this. I want her to feel seen, you know. So it was a moment has caused a revolution in medicine and how it perceives certain communities. Absolutely. And I think also how people within that community see themselves. And when you were talking about the fact that, you know, people saying, oh, the no child is black inside the belly. Let's, let's engage that. But I think this is a thing about privilege when the whole world has been drafted for you and you see yourself quite often in the, it doesn't even matter if kids are red. In the belly. The reality is like nobody, I don't think of my baby inside me and think, are they green or are they purple? You know, like they should look like me or semblance of me and their other parents, you know. And I think people take for granted the notion of having seen themselves depicted in every space, in books, in media, in medicine. And songs in the stories that are told. And I think, you know, your work, and this is a thing, like it turns that on its head. So even though people were coming back and saying, no, no, no, at least they have to think about it. It's not just the norm that a baby inside or all babies, you know, uh say whatever color they are, and so should be depicted as Caucasian, you know? And I think there's that beauty in what you've been able to create. And i feel like every racial group should have something. Every ethnic group should have something that depicts their tribal marks, you know. Whatever it is they carry because representation is imperative and it absolutely matters. And i'm sorry to hear about the whole nigerian situation and you know i mean at also this point i think that's getting old when I hear it from people, I'm just thoroughly annoyed. You know, because it's, this is a country of 230, 250 million people. And, you know, sometimes I'm just like, do you know who Nigerians are? I mean, yeah, about the smartest, some of the smartest people in the world. Like, what are you talking about? You know, but I feel like this whole thing about, course, this money, no, just enjoy the work. Just be grateful for the work. So I'm sorry you had to deal with all that nonsense. But I think the fact that you dealt with all of that and still chose to move and still chose to move ahead and create. I think that speaks a lot to you know, your will that they can't break and i absolutely love that for you. And i guess especially even to this point on pushback, when you challenge something that has been normalized for centuries. Because one of the things I was thinking about why hasn't this been done like this in this way? You know? So when you challenge something that has been the norm for centuries, the pushback is inevitable, which is of course you've gotten some. How do you stay rooted in the purpose when institutions, not just random individuals on social media, but institutions resist the change that you represent. Yes, um I think the beautiful thing about change is that it's always resistance. Not everyone is going to accept change immediately. The beautiful thing about being a pioneer or being a frontier of something like this is that you should be expectant of resistance to change. I had a couple of times where people were saying things like, why does this matter? You know, why do we need black images in textbooks? Why do we have to revise our curricula to ensure that, images are diverse enough? Up to now, it's really a difficult thing and that is why the work continues, because not everyone has come to the realization that this something is missing. So oh I have to constantly put out the work to ensure that there is a need to integrate this in our educational system, in our institution, regardless of if we accept it or not. And this is the thing, I believe that on the cadre of influence, or the cadre of people who matter in court, for example, what I mean is this, if for example, the Ministry of Health, says, okay, in our public health materials, we want to diversify our images to ensure that they cover certain population. Now, it's easy for the Ministry of Education, to say, the - Ministry of Health, which is a top ministry is doing this, why don't you also integrate this in our educational system. If one body institutes this, it's easy for the next body to also want to do this too. And I would say that has also been the good thing about the work because I've had opportunities to work with big institutions, So I would say it's a slow process, but we're getting there. I think that's also the reason why I do what I do to ensure that it's constantly, placing the heart of people that there is something missing in this space. So oh it is really a difficult thing to make people accept. For example, Imagine going to a lecturer and telling a lecturer, you've been teaching us wrong. Heat rash should look like this on the black skin He will feel insulted, so the better way to making them see that they've missed something is by showing them that they have missed something. So that is why the work has to continue. And the good thing is that patients are also being involved in this. We have patients who are taking up advocacy as a personal matter. You know, when people begin to build community around the a problem, we directly are finding solutions to that problem. So community building is really important in, something like this, So ultimately, I feel like, the change is slow, but it's it's happening. Hmm. Yes, I think change definitely takes time and a lot of perseverance and patience. And one of the things I, that resonates for me as I listen to you speak is, first being self taught you didn't ask for permission. And one of the things I say, even about my process, like I became successful when I stopped. Asking for permission. I think I see that also like embodied in your work and your process, just like, hey, this is there to be done. I'm not going to talk about it. I'm just going to show you because you're absolutely correct that you sometimes showing is more powerful than telling because sometimes when you tell people their egos, their fragility, everything gets into play. And I think What you've been able to create without permission is radical in and of itself. It requires a lot of resilience, right? To fight against systems and structures that were not necessarily built for you or that were designed to gatekeep knowledge. So what, this is how medicine has been done for the past 100, 5000 years. It needs to change. That it has been done this way doesn't, doesn't mean that. It should always be done the same way. So there needs to be also room for evolutions. And then on illustration, I also want to ask you've illustrated quite a lot of different things. I believe you've drawn muscles, organs, tissues, bones. What part of the body do you find most poetic to illustrate? And what does it say metaphorically about who we are? Oh f- Interesting. For me, think it's the skin. Why I say that is because when I published my book Beyond Skin, the idea came when I was thinking about... Can we see people beyond the skin, you know? And if we can do, how does that make the person feel? So, I think whenever I'm drawing the skin, I'm most detailed You know, I try to zoom in to ensure that I'm getting all the contours, the textures correctly, because I realized that the first thing people see is the skin, Not the heart, right? Not the lungs, the skin. But the intriguing thing is that if I'm a heart surgeon, the way I can treat the heart or the way I can do surgery in the heart can influenced by the way I see the skin, because if I see the skin as, he's black, okay, I'm probably gonna have a laissez-faire- attitude towards, how I treat the patient because of having a heart condition. So the skin is a powerful organ. Creates a system where people are seen, it creates a system where people are racially treated fairly You know, it is just the first people see with respect to other organs know, the heart, thank you for all you do. But the skin think it's, it plays a pivotal role in how, we see people. And I would say that is my favorite organ to draw. Mmm. I think it's true what you say, Because oftentimes when we talk about unconscious bias and things like meritocracy or just treating the person as a person in face of unconscious bias, it's just, you see the skin and your brain does what it does and left unchecked. That's the difference between life and death for some people. I don't think most people wake up and go, yeah, I'm going to kill a black mom today. You know, I don't think that ever is thought about, like at least not a medical practitioner, but it happens. That is the first thing we see. And there's a lot of judgments that comes from appearance. Like it could be skin color. Could be whether somebody has a disability, yeah, it could be so much that is decided by our brain, how we engage with those people. But when it push comes to shove, especially within the medical field, the first thing anyone sees is the skin. And I think there's a lot of power in. Yeah. Loving that the most and it shows as well in your work. You know, when I've spoken to people about your work, like in Spaces I Hold, often times they talk about, oh, it's, it's, it's great representation. I personally see it as a reclamation, you know, like when you draw a black skin, black organ, or black pregnancy. For me, when I see your work, there's, there's something quite as ancestral to it, you know, and there's something also quite African, but I'm very. Aware that this could very much be because I know there's an African and a Nigerian behind the pen, You talk about being Nigerian, you talk about that with pride. Think just being Nigerian and having pride is like a birthright that was just born into the world with. But I do want to ask, and I think you talked a bit about it in terms of representation and honoring tribal sensitivities. How does being African inform not just your style but also your stance and your refusal to separate medicine from humanity? Think considering the fact that we are the most ignored group, you look at it critically, Africa is a great place. I love being a Nigerian. I'm so proud being a Nigerian and I always say it everywhere. I think they just popularly saying that if you go to any country and they go to Nigeria, you better leave that country. So it is amazing thing to be a Nigerian and I always say that. But I think that the foundation is to see that because we are the most not represented community of people, the better person to do it is not just somebody else, but we as the owner of this culture, the owner of this belief. Are the best person to put ourselves on the global map, and that tells a lot about loving our own and supporting our own, there was a time I went to pitch an idea to a big organization, The funny thing, this mission is in Nigeria actually. So when I got there, we were just having conversations. I told them about experiences of what happened when the black people leave Nigeria to the Western world, how they have been treated because of their skin. And the response I got was like, it doesn't matter, Now the world is focused on climate change. That's they're focused on right now. And then I realized that, okay, we really have a lot of work to do. Because I realized that in as much as you think you talk about climate change, you wouldn't be talking about climate change if you had not given the opportunity in quote to talk about climate change. And that is just taking your grounds to talk about something you believe in and representing the community. So what I do is compose an important list to ensure that not just myself, that everyone that looks like me, when they got out of the space, they are being treated fairly, they are being listened to, they are being given the attention that they deserve. So I think that's why I do what I do from the standpoint of where I am right now, to give everybody that fairness, that equality through visual creation. Hmm. I think there's a responsibility to your work and I, it's, it's really great to see how you take that seriously, so to say. I think that there's a responsibility in carrying people's stories and. Visibilizing people in spaces where previously they've been erased or ignored. And whoever said climate change. Is the only thing we care about. But climate change also very much intersects with health and health inequity remains one of the most urgent problems and challenges of our time. And we live in a world that is so deeply interconnected that there are aspects of even something like climate and sustainability where we look at climate justice and think, this intersects with our well-being, this intersects our health and also the care we receive or the care we do not receive. So, yeah, thank you for doing the work and for, speaking up and creating representation for so many of us. And I think that work is incredibly valued. I often think about your arts as a form of intervention. You know, and your work has been an intervention for me. I know it has been an intervention for so many other people as well. But I wonder what illustration has healed for you that medicine could not. And also what it has taught you about yourself. And the kind of world you're trying to create. Oof, that's some serious questions. Yeah. I like serious questions Chidiebere - Yeah. So, um... Yeah, what art has healed for me. I wasn't really a very patient person. It was a struggle for me. Um I'm a perfectionist, or I was a perfectionist. So I'm still trying to let that go. I thought that art was about perfection. But then when I through my work as an illustrator, I realized that not necessarily... art is about beauty, as well as communication is about how it communicates to the person looking at it. When I created the Black fetus Illustration, I did not like the illustration. Like I wasn't appreciative of it. What I mean is that because when I was, I did that with a computer mouse. So it was difficult to have good lines, to have good shading. The way the image was in my mind wasn't coming out. So was like, I don't like this artwork. I'm just going to post it anyway But I would tell you it's the most beautiful piece right now. Whenever I look at it from my, from my wall, I was like, this is so beautiful. You know, so you see my concept about perfection has changed over time, and not just about how I approach people, I'm not a perfect being myself, but then I wanted people to be perfect around me. It wasn't a good thing to do, because I wanted people to be careful of what they say, of how they do things. It kind of make people around me very meticulous. People were not comfortable, expressing themselves around me anymore because I wanted perfection of people around me. And it was very toxic. I'm not ashamed to acknowledge my wrongs, you know. But then art has redefined that concept of perfectionism, accepting things the way they are and seeing the beauty in it. It has been the greatest change in my life. You know, that's been the greatest change. And all thanks to art. For teaching me that, So it goes to say that art not just the thing of beauty, but the thing of lesson, the thing of, moral perspective, teaching us life lesson, being of character and virtues, which is important to navigating through life journey. So art has really done that for me. I would say in the world of medicine, you know, it also shows that, there is no limitation to the things that our minds can achieve. Back then I was thinking of how can I juxtapose art and medicine? I mean, wanting to be a good doctor and wanting to be a great artist are two extreme areas where you have to forfeit one for the other. I had time with people who were like, why not just leave illustration because of medicine? For me, these are two important fields in my life. Both of them are important. The good thing about arts in medicine is that when I'm studying, I get to conceptualize these things and they kind of stick to my brain. And I think though the research that, I talked about integrating art into medical curricula where students should at least be taught art at least once in their process of being a medical student because art kind of just, it not just teaches you a good hand-eye coordination. It teaches you how to approach patients also. So, Ultimately, has kind of shaped my life in the medical perspective, in my personal well-being as a human. I think it feels good to be a good artist. Yeah. I love this for you. As you were saying, I was thinking, yeah, that must be super cool for taking exams because when you're studying, you can just like visibly see all those things yeah, that's quite nice. That's like a superpower. You know, I'd love to have, you know, like back when I was in school that I could just like see it in pictures and images. That's gorgeous. So I kind of want to look at, you know, themes around. I mean, you shared a bit with us around, you know, the legacy you hope for in terms of when all of this is said and done, you know, I think, I mean, I know you're quite young, but I also know that you've also created so much regardless for so many people. So there's that legacy. So I'm just excited to see what comes for you with time, which I know it will be remarkable. Ah But I do want to ask you, this is a question that I ask most guests, like if younger Chidiebere- could see you now, what would he love? What would leave him in a state of awe? Hmm. I think everything, because I'm not just a definition of grace. I'm also a definition of someone who his entire life has been changed, Mentally, physically, communication wise. I was born a stutterer. So I didn't know how to hold good conversation with I didn't know how to express myself without stuttering. So seeing that I could have conversations, I could go on stage and talk to great people and not stutter is a big change in my life. I think my first public speaking engagement was my Ted talk, which was in Switzerland, which I never knew I would ever, ever be on such stage Well. The intriguing thing was that when I was young, I had a diary where I wrote something I called the cycle of life. Most of the cycle of my life. So I drew a circle, I wrote the age I was then. At 22, I want to be this, I want to have this. I wrote somewhere that want to be a TEDx speaker. That was years back. And when that happened, I realized that, oh, I'm literally living the dreams, the thing that I had prayed for. That is something to be so grateful for. As I always say, growth is a constant process. I'm not there yet. I'm still growing, I'm still evolving. But I would say that every area of my life has been changed. And so my younger self would be so proud of who I've become right now. And yeah, I don't like writing, but it's amazing that most times I get to do things that I don't love doing. And because I've published a book, I have another book I intend publishing. But then back then I was like, I don't like writing. But I realized that another way to shape what you have to the world is by putting it down in pen and paper, know, letting the world to read, So whether I love it or not, I have to write. I think along with Young Chidiebere, a lot of your aunties and people across the world, like even those of us who don't know you, were just like, yay, we're proud of you too. And I think it's a good reminder of dreaming and actioning what you were called for, right? Because as you say, you wrote down quite a number of things that you want to do and probably just packed it away, but in some capacity, like you are living intentionally, consciously, and somehow you end up where you need to be. And then when that opportunity shows up, you lean in, so you don't like to write, but you've published a book, which I will also link, because I have also ordered the book and I can't wait to like get into it. But I think this also reminds me of the power of dreaming and then feeling the fear, the discomfort and then doing it anyway. Because as you say, it is true. Like sometimes we need to write ourselves into history. We need to draw ourselves into history. We need to draw ourselves into, you know, medical journals or even changing the way people were seen. Um, so that, that so much of that resonates with me. And I also feel like I can talk to you forever. Um, but I do want to ask you, uh, kind of like a final question here around legacy and impact, So what legacy do you hope to leave? Because you, you, have an interesting intersection, right? You are at an intersection of arts, medicine, and social justice. And those are big things. Where you exist at that intersection. What legacy do you hope to leave? Oh Well, first I would say that I would say something that my friend always say, that it's possible to do great things from small places. The legacy I want to leave is to tell people that no matter where you are in the part of the world, there are no limitations to the things you can achieve. And for me being in Nigeria, being in Akwa Ibom state particular, which is a very small state to do that illustration, which went viral was something I would never imagine. So it is one legacy I wanna leave to people, to younger people, to anyone that there are no limitations. Second, the legacy I want to leave is that in a noisy world where a lot of things are happening, people are giving, you know, advice that are unsolicited, You are your only true motivation. You are your only true drive. So the legacy I want to leave is to ensure that people are seeing themselves in the lens of God's eye, how God sees them and how their purpose on earth is important. And also, in the area of medicine, the area of social justice and art, in years to come, when textbooks will be diversified, when we have a lot of diverse illustration, and when When people would Google heat rash and they see diverse images, there will be a trace back to someone who those pilot phase, who led this great change in the healthcare space. And it's gonna be exciting for me that I see this great change happening in my time. That's kind of legacy I wanna see, that people feel confident in their skin. So I would say, my legacy is not much but actually I just sort of see a world where, you know, everyone is living, a life where they deserve and the life where they are seen, and I think it's going to make me happy. Yeah, I'm happy to be driving this change, but the change doesn't end with me. Know, people need to continue the job, to continue the journey. And yeah, I just want to say that you've already trailblazed, You're pioneer, you're a mover and shaker as we like to say in Naija, you like you're shaking things. And I think it's so brilliant. It's so important. And you know, what is also coming up for me based on what you said is just the mind is, and I love this saying, know, the mind is a... one battleground that we cannot afford to lose. You know, like people can say what they want, but at the end of the day, we have to have that conviction within self to move in direction of our purpose. And I think that you are a remarkable example of that. So when you say you don't have much legacy, honey, like your legacy is legacy-ing, right? It's like it's here, it's done. It's written in. Stone, not an ink that can be washed away, it's in stone. And I think it's giving people permission to ask to see themselves in the spaces that they have to engage in because health is so important. We all need good health. We all need health care, from one reason to the next. So thank you for that work. Thank you for the legacy. That is already written in stone. And I'm so excited to be here for the journey that comes ahead. And yeah, thank you. I'm just so happy for this conversation. Thank you for spending time with me. This has been absolutely lovely. Of course, knowing you, I knew this was going to be great. But thank you so much, Chidiebere I appreciate you. Yes, thank you. Thank you for having me. I think it's to say it's one of the best podcasts I've had, you know, because it's organic. It's, it's out of the norm, not very usual questions, and I think it makes me think and to, bring out answers from deep down within, you know, where they were hidden. And I think it's an amazing podcast and I look forward to listening to you when it's out. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Thanks for that feedback. I appreciate it. So thanks again and talk to you soon. Thank you for spending time with us on Overnight Wisdom. If this conversation moved you, inspired you, or made you pause, please like, leave a comment, or share it with someone who needs to hear it. You can follow the show wherever you get your podcasts, and if you're feeling generous, a rating or review goes a long way in helping others find us too. Until next time, stay curious, stay tender, and may the wisdom you need find you exactly when you're ready.